I disagree that 80k should transition towards a £3k retreat + no online content model, but it doesn’t seem worth getting into why here.
On premises, here is the top definition I have found from googling… “a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion”. This fits with my (and CFAR’s) characterisation of double cruxing. I think we’re agreed that the question is which premises you disagree on cause your disagreement. It is logically impossible that double cruxing extends this characterisation.
I disagree that 80k should transition towards a £3k retreat + no online content model, but it doesn’t seem worth getting into why here.
I never said 80k should transition towards a retreat + no online content model. What I said is that it seems plausible to me it would still produce a lot of value in that case, though I agree that their current model seems likely a better fit for them, and probably overall more valuable. Presumably you also disagree with that, but it seemed important to distinguish.
“a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion”
Given that in the scenario as outlined, there was no “previous statement” or “previous proposition”, I am still confused how you think this definition fits. In the scenario at hand, nobody first outlined their complete argument for why they think the claim discussed is true, and as such, there is no “previous statement or proposition” that can be referred back to. This definition seems to refer mostly to logical argument, which doesn’t really apply to most human cognition.
I am not super excited about debating definitions, and we both agree that using the word premise is at least somewhat close to the right concept, so I am not very excited about continuing this thread further. If you really care about this, I would be glad to set up an experiment on mechanical turk in which we ask participants to list the necessary premises of a belief they hold, and see how much their responses differ from asking them what observations would change their mind about X. It seems clear to me that their responses would differ significantly.
which premises you disagree on cause your disagreement.
This is still only capturing half of it, even under the definition of premise that you’ve outlined here, which seems to be a reasonable definition of what a crux for a single participant in the conversation is. A double crux would be “a set of premises, that when viewed as a new conjunctive proposition you both assign opposite truth values to, that when flipped would cause both of you to change their mind”. Though that alone obviously doesn’t yet make a procedure, so there is still a bunch more structure, but I would think of the above as an accurate enough description to start working with it.
It is logically impossible that double cruxing extends this characterisation.
I don’t think I really know how to engage with this. Obviously it’s possible for double-crux to extend this characterization. I even outlined a key piece that was missing from it in the above paragraph.
But it’s also a procedure that is meant to be used with real people, where every bit of framing and instruction matters. If you really believe this, let us run a test and just give one group of people the instruction “find the premises on which you disagree on that cause your disagreement” and the other group the full double crux worksheet. Presumably you agree that the behavior of those groups will drastically differ.
You maybe have something more specific in mind when you mean “logically impossible”, but given that we are talking about a high-level procedure proofs of logical impossibility seem highly unlikely to me.
I disagree that 80k should transition towards a £3k retreat + no online content model, but it doesn’t seem worth getting into why here.
On premises, here is the top definition I have found from googling… “a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion”. This fits with my (and CFAR’s) characterisation of double cruxing. I think we’re agreed that the question is which premises you disagree on cause your disagreement. It is logically impossible that double cruxing extends this characterisation.
I never said 80k should transition towards a retreat + no online content model. What I said is that it seems plausible to me it would still produce a lot of value in that case, though I agree that their current model seems likely a better fit for them, and probably overall more valuable. Presumably you also disagree with that, but it seemed important to distinguish.
Given that in the scenario as outlined, there was no “previous statement” or “previous proposition”, I am still confused how you think this definition fits. In the scenario at hand, nobody first outlined their complete argument for why they think the claim discussed is true, and as such, there is no “previous statement or proposition” that can be referred back to. This definition seems to refer mostly to logical argument, which doesn’t really apply to most human cognition.
I am not super excited about debating definitions, and we both agree that using the word premise is at least somewhat close to the right concept, so I am not very excited about continuing this thread further. If you really care about this, I would be glad to set up an experiment on mechanical turk in which we ask participants to list the necessary premises of a belief they hold, and see how much their responses differ from asking them what observations would change their mind about X. It seems clear to me that their responses would differ significantly.
This is still only capturing half of it, even under the definition of premise that you’ve outlined here, which seems to be a reasonable definition of what a crux for a single participant in the conversation is. A double crux would be “a set of premises, that when viewed as a new conjunctive proposition you both assign opposite truth values to, that when flipped would cause both of you to change their mind”. Though that alone obviously doesn’t yet make a procedure, so there is still a bunch more structure, but I would think of the above as an accurate enough description to start working with it.
I don’t think I really know how to engage with this. Obviously it’s possible for double-crux to extend this characterization. I even outlined a key piece that was missing from it in the above paragraph.
But it’s also a procedure that is meant to be used with real people, where every bit of framing and instruction matters. If you really believe this, let us run a test and just give one group of people the instruction “find the premises on which you disagree on that cause your disagreement” and the other group the full double crux worksheet. Presumably you agree that the behavior of those groups will drastically differ.
You maybe have something more specific in mind when you mean “logically impossible”, but given that we are talking about a high-level procedure proofs of logical impossibility seem highly unlikely to me.