One other thing I think is somewhat relevant here is that among really smart students, ivies primarily select for well-roundedness, ie doing a lot of volunteer work, being really committed to a hobby, etc., rather than simply being good at and focused on schoolwork. I think there is some argument that these things yield better EAs (they may be less likely to feel like their path is directly toward academia), but I think well-roundedness is in general unfavorable in EA. Dedicating your life towards an intellectual community requires a high degree of commitment toward intellectualism, rather than simply seeing intellectual work as a part of your life but not where you derive most of your purpose or joy.
I think well-roundedness is maybe unfavorable for some EAs (mainly in academia), but not for a majority of EAs.
My experience from observing some of my most successful friends in non-EA orgs (policy roles, consulting, PE etc.) is that well-roundedness is a good predictor of success. Of course, no scientific proof, but you can imagine that abilities as quickly understanding social norms, showing grit, and manoeuvring in complex social (not purely intellectual) environments help you in those careers. These are things that you (partially) practice and learn in sports, board roles and some type of work you can do in college.
I think Excellent Sheep by Deresiewicz mentions that very selective institutions are looking for “pointy circles”—e.g., better than average in most things with one particularly standout trait. It’s been a while since I read it, so I think it might be looking over again with a critical eye toward the stats.
Also, well-roundedness, at least from word-of-mouth from someone involved in medical school admissions at a top 25 medical school, is used to proxy “effortlessness” rather than passion, i.e., someone who can handle much more work than average without burning out. From peers that look at their college admissions folder, there tends to be selection for filling a certain niche on campus (e.g., this person will probably lead a cultural club, this one is likely to join this niche club, etc.). So in some ways, it actively selects against students who primarily want to pursue high impact careers.
My sense is that this is a common misconception. As far as I can tell, volunteering+sports+other extracurriculars that don’t literally reach the national or international level are kinda like a 1560 SAT—good enough for the second tier, not the first.
And I hesitate to share because it seems to violate like six social norms , but whatever; when I was applying to college, I had a few well-roundedness points:
Edit: I’m weak and succumbing to the norms :( Blurred text instead:
I mean, I’m happy to see data that proves me wrong, but I wouldn’t extrapolate from your individual case. Obviously extracurriculars + 1560 SAT arent a free ticket to harvard, but I still think the primary differentiator between smart kids that get into Ivies and those that don’t (beyond affirmative action) is how involved they are in extracurriculars.
Oh yeah I totally agree, but not in the “well roundedness” sense. Like “Olympian” or “world’s best youth chess player” would be seen more favorably than a laundry list of less-dramatic things
Right this is always a spectrum but I don’t think “Olympian” is the best cutoff here, I think “been doing this thing since I was five and am now nationally ranked” or “started some local volunteer (not school) organization” is a better description here. Honestly I would expect your rock climbing thing to reflect pretty well and am somewhat surprised that it didn’t get you anywhere, though I think getting into Georgetown is not exactly a rejection of your qualifications :)
Good points. An important point to bear in mind though is that once again well-roundedness, volunteer work, hobbies etc are all related to factors apart from motivation/ability. Generally, people from wealthier backgrounds have much more of these on their resume than people from poorer backgrounds because they could afford to take part in the hobbies, could afford to work for free, etc. Lots of supposedly ‘academic filtering’ is actually just socioeconomic filtering with extra steps.
One other thing I think is somewhat relevant here is that among really smart students, ivies primarily select for well-roundedness, ie doing a lot of volunteer work, being really committed to a hobby, etc., rather than simply being good at and focused on schoolwork. I think there is some argument that these things yield better EAs (they may be less likely to feel like their path is directly toward academia), but I think well-roundedness is in general unfavorable in EA. Dedicating your life towards an intellectual community requires a high degree of commitment toward intellectualism, rather than simply seeing intellectual work as a part of your life but not where you derive most of your purpose or joy.
I think well-roundedness is maybe unfavorable for some EAs (mainly in academia), but not for a majority of EAs.
My experience from observing some of my most successful friends in non-EA orgs (policy roles, consulting, PE etc.) is that well-roundedness is a good predictor of success. Of course, no scientific proof, but you can imagine that abilities as quickly understanding social norms, showing grit, and manoeuvring in complex social (not purely intellectual) environments help you in those careers. These are things that you (partially) practice and learn in sports, board roles and some type of work you can do in college.
I think Excellent Sheep by Deresiewicz mentions that very selective institutions are looking for “pointy circles”—e.g., better than average in most things with one particularly standout trait. It’s been a while since I read it, so I think it might be looking over again with a critical eye toward the stats.
Also, well-roundedness, at least from word-of-mouth from someone involved in medical school admissions at a top 25 medical school, is used to proxy “effortlessness” rather than passion, i.e., someone who can handle much more work than average without burning out. From peers that look at their college admissions folder, there tends to be selection for filling a certain niche on campus (e.g., this person will probably lead a cultural club, this one is likely to join this niche club, etc.). So in some ways, it actively selects against students who primarily want to pursue high impact careers.
My sense is that this is a common misconception. As far as I can tell, volunteering+sports+other extracurriculars that don’t literally reach the national or international level are kinda like a 1560 SAT—good enough for the second tier, not the first.
And I hesitate to share because it seems to violate like six social norms , but whatever; when I was applying to college, I had a few well-roundedness points:
Edit: I’m weak and succumbing to the norms :( Blurred text instead:
Oof, feel like I’m applying to college again lol
I mean, I’m happy to see data that proves me wrong, but I wouldn’t extrapolate from your individual case. Obviously extracurriculars + 1560 SAT arent a free ticket to harvard, but I still think the primary differentiator between smart kids that get into Ivies and those that don’t (beyond affirmative action) is how involved they are in extracurriculars.
Oh yeah I totally agree, but not in the “well roundedness” sense. Like “Olympian” or “world’s best youth chess player” would be seen more favorably than a laundry list of less-dramatic things
Right this is always a spectrum but I don’t think “Olympian” is the best cutoff here, I think “been doing this thing since I was five and am now nationally ranked” or “started some local volunteer (not school) organization” is a better description here. Honestly I would expect your rock climbing thing to reflect pretty well and am somewhat surprised that it didn’t get you anywhere, though I think getting into Georgetown is not exactly a rejection of your qualifications :)
:) thank you, and for sure I feel very fortunate to be accepted there and am very glad I went!
Good points. An important point to bear in mind though is that once again well-roundedness, volunteer work, hobbies etc are all related to factors apart from motivation/ability. Generally, people from wealthier backgrounds have much more of these on their resume than people from poorer backgrounds because they could afford to take part in the hobbies, could afford to work for free, etc. Lots of supposedly ‘academic filtering’ is actually just socioeconomic filtering with extra steps.