The only meta-ethical justification we should care about is our ethical theory being true. We should only care about a ethical theory being aesthetically pleasing, “fit for a the modern age”, easily explainable, future-proofed, or having other qualities to the extent that it correlates with truthfulness. I see the future-proof goal as misguided. To me, it feels as though you may have selected this meta-ethical principle with the idea of justifying your ethical theory rather than having this meta-ethical theory and using it to find an ethical there which coheres to it.
I could be a Christian and use the meta-ethical justification “I want an ethical theory uncorrupted by 21st century societal norms!” But like the utilitarian, this would seem selected in a biased way to reach my conclusion. I could have a number of variables like aesthetically pleasing, easily communicable, looked upon favorably by future humans and so forth, but the only variable I’m maximizing on is truth.
Your goal is to select an ethical theory that will be looked upon favorably by future humans. You want this because you believe in moral progress. You believe in moral progress because you look down on past humans as less moral than more recent humans. You look down on past humans as less moral because they don’t fit your ethical theory. This is circular; your method for selecting an ethical theory uses an ethical theory to determine it is a good method.
That is: simply going with our intuitions and societal norms has, in the past, meant endorsing all kinds of insanity.
The irony is that this can be presented as insanity and horrible without justification. There is no need to say why lynching and burning humans at picnics is bad. Karnofsky does not even try to apply a utility analysis to dissuading crimes via lynch mobs or discuss the effectiveness of waterboardining or the consequences of the female vote. He doesn’t need to do this because these things are intuitively immoral. Ironically, it goes without saying because of intuition.
Once again, we can flip the argument. I could take someone from 1400 and tell him that homosexuality is legalized and openly practiced. In some places, teenage boys are encouraged to openly express their homosexuality by wearing flag pins. A great deal of homosexuals actually have sex with many men. Every adult, and unfortunately many minors, has access to a massive video library of sexual acts which illicit feelings of disgust in even the most open minded. If this man from 1400 saw the future as a bleak and immoral place which we should avoid becoming, how would you convince him he was wrong. Why are your intuitions right and his intuitions wrong? What objective measure are you using? If he formulated a meta-ethical principle that “We should not become like the future”, what would be wrong with that?
My take is that intuitions are imperfect, but they are what we have. I think that the people who hung homosexuals probably had an intuitive sense that it was immoral, but religious ferver was overwhelming. There are evil and wicked people that existed in the past, but there were also people who saw these things as immoral. I’m sure many saw burning and lynching humans as repugnant. Intuitions are the only tool we have for determining right from wrong. The fact that people were wrong in the past is not a good reason to say that we can’t use intuition whatsoever.
Very intelligent people of a past era used the scientific method, deduction and inductive inference to reach conclusions that were terribly wrong. These people were often motivated by their ideological desires or influenced by their peers and culture. People thought the earth was at the center of the solar system and they had elaborate theories. I don’t think Karnofsky is arguing we should throw out intuitions entirely, but for those who don’t believe in intuitions: we can’t throw out intuitions like we can’t throw out the scientific method, deduction and induction because people of a past era were wrong.
The most credible candidate for a future-proof ethical system, to my knowledge, rests on three basic pillars:
Systemization: seeking an ethical system based on consistently applying fundamental principles, rather than handling each decision with case-specific intuitions. More
Thin utilitarianism: prioritizing the “greatest good for the greatest number,” while not necessarily buying into all the views traditionally associated with utilitarianism. More
Sentientism: counting anyone or anything with the capacity for pleasure and suffering—whether an animal, a reinforcement learner (a type of AI), etc. - as a “person” for ethical purposes. More
How do we know the people of the future won’t be non-systemitizing, non-utilitarian and not care about AI or animals quite as much? I think in order to think they will, we must believe in moral progress. In order to believe moral progress results in these beliefs, we must believe that our moral theory is the actually correct one.
I just think that you can flip these things around so easily and apply them to stuff that isn’t utilitarianism and sentientism. I think that Roman Catholicism would be a good example of a future proofed ethical system. They laid out a system of rules and took it where it goes. Even if it seems unintuitive to modern Catholics to oppose homosexuality or if in the past it felt okay to commit infanticide or abortion, we should just follow the deep truths of the doctrine. I don’t think we can just say “well Catholicism is wrong.” I think the Catholic ethical code is wrong, but I think it meets your systematizing heuristic.
Let’s start with a basic, appealing-seeming principle for ethics: that it should be other-centered. That is, my ethical system should be based as much as possible on the needs and wants of others, rather than on my personal preferences and personal goals.
Once again, I’ll just flip this and say that ethics should be God centered. It should be based as much as possible on the needs and wants of others. Why is the God centered principle false and your principle true? Intuition? How do we know the future will be other centered ethics?
In general, I’m committed to some non-utilitarian personal codes of ethics, such as (to simplify) “deceiving people is bad” and “keeping my word is good.” I’m only interested in applying utilitarianism within particular domains (such as “where should I donate?”) where it doesn’t challenge these codes.
I’m confused. How are you getting these principles? Why are you not following precisely the system you just argued for.
I think there are two methods that people use. You could deduce ethical rules from some truths or you could believe it is most probable given the evidence. I think that intuitions are the only form of evidence possible. Something seeming true is a prima facie justification for that ethical truth. We accept intuition in the form of perception, memory knowledge, mathematical knowledge, etc. I don’t find it as much of a leap to accept it in the case of moral truths. Torturing an infant seems wrong and that is evidence it is wrong. I think I remember my name on here is Parrhesia and so that is at least some reason to think my name on here is Parrhesia.
The only meta-ethical justification we should care about is our ethical theory being true. We should only care about a ethical theory being aesthetically pleasing, “fit for a the modern age”, easily explainable, future-proofed, or having other qualities to the extent that it correlates with truthfulness. I see the future-proof goal as misguided. To me, it feels as though you may have selected this meta-ethical principle with the idea of justifying your ethical theory rather than having this meta-ethical theory and using it to find an ethical there which coheres to it.
I could be a Christian and use the meta-ethical justification “I want an ethical theory uncorrupted by 21st century societal norms!” But like the utilitarian, this would seem selected in a biased way to reach my conclusion. I could have a number of variables like aesthetically pleasing, easily communicable, looked upon favorably by future humans and so forth, but the only variable I’m maximizing on is truth.
Your goal is to select an ethical theory that will be looked upon favorably by future humans. You want this because you believe in moral progress. You believe in moral progress because you look down on past humans as less moral than more recent humans. You look down on past humans as less moral because they don’t fit your ethical theory. This is circular; your method for selecting an ethical theory uses an ethical theory to determine it is a good method.
The irony is that this can be presented as insanity and horrible without justification. There is no need to say why lynching and burning humans at picnics is bad. Karnofsky does not even try to apply a utility analysis to dissuading crimes via lynch mobs or discuss the effectiveness of waterboardining or the consequences of the female vote. He doesn’t need to do this because these things are intuitively immoral. Ironically, it goes without saying because of intuition.
Once again, we can flip the argument. I could take someone from 1400 and tell him that homosexuality is legalized and openly practiced. In some places, teenage boys are encouraged to openly express their homosexuality by wearing flag pins. A great deal of homosexuals actually have sex with many men. Every adult, and unfortunately many minors, has access to a massive video library of sexual acts which illicit feelings of disgust in even the most open minded. If this man from 1400 saw the future as a bleak and immoral place which we should avoid becoming, how would you convince him he was wrong. Why are your intuitions right and his intuitions wrong? What objective measure are you using? If he formulated a meta-ethical principle that “We should not become like the future”, what would be wrong with that?
My take is that intuitions are imperfect, but they are what we have. I think that the people who hung homosexuals probably had an intuitive sense that it was immoral, but religious ferver was overwhelming. There are evil and wicked people that existed in the past, but there were also people who saw these things as immoral. I’m sure many saw burning and lynching humans as repugnant. Intuitions are the only tool we have for determining right from wrong. The fact that people were wrong in the past is not a good reason to say that we can’t use intuition whatsoever.
Very intelligent people of a past era used the scientific method, deduction and inductive inference to reach conclusions that were terribly wrong. These people were often motivated by their ideological desires or influenced by their peers and culture. People thought the earth was at the center of the solar system and they had elaborate theories. I don’t think Karnofsky is arguing we should throw out intuitions entirely, but for those who don’t believe in intuitions: we can’t throw out intuitions like we can’t throw out the scientific method, deduction and induction because people of a past era were wrong.
How do we know the people of the future won’t be non-systemitizing, non-utilitarian and not care about AI or animals quite as much? I think in order to think they will, we must believe in moral progress. In order to believe moral progress results in these beliefs, we must believe that our moral theory is the actually correct one.
I just think that you can flip these things around so easily and apply them to stuff that isn’t utilitarianism and sentientism. I think that Roman Catholicism would be a good example of a future proofed ethical system. They laid out a system of rules and took it where it goes. Even if it seems unintuitive to modern Catholics to oppose homosexuality or if in the past it felt okay to commit infanticide or abortion, we should just follow the deep truths of the doctrine. I don’t think we can just say “well Catholicism is wrong.” I think the Catholic ethical code is wrong, but I think it meets your systematizing heuristic.
Once again, I’ll just flip this and say that ethics should be God centered. It should be based as much as possible on the needs and wants of others. Why is the God centered principle false and your principle true? Intuition? How do we know the future will be other centered ethics?
I’m confused. How are you getting these principles? Why are you not following precisely the system you just argued for.
How would you find Truth?
I think there are two methods that people use. You could deduce ethical rules from some truths or you could believe it is most probable given the evidence. I think that intuitions are the only form of evidence possible. Something seeming true is a prima facie justification for that ethical truth. We accept intuition in the form of perception, memory knowledge, mathematical knowledge, etc. I don’t find it as much of a leap to accept it in the case of moral truths. Torturing an infant seems wrong and that is evidence it is wrong. I think I remember my name on here is Parrhesia and so that is at least some reason to think my name on here is Parrhesia.