Ok—I subscribed to the forum but I don’t know how to answer to the comment you linked to.
To post on my forum, you have to pay $20 (once, not recurring). I know the communication on this isn’t amazing (Discourse has limited options) though there should be a banner and some info about it in a few places, but I know sometimes people still don’t see it. There’s a subscribe button on the home page but it’s in a menu on mobile instead of directly visible. It takes you to https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/s and then the payment flow is with a standard plugin that uses Stripe.
If it’s a financial burden for you, I can give you free access.
If you can afford it, then I’ll have to ask you to pay, because my general policy is if people value a discussion with me less than $20 then I shouldn’t talk with them. I skip that policy when I go participate at other communities, but I’m quitting the EA forum now.
Ok—I though the $20 were for making posts, I didn’t think it was for answering.
I don’t think I will pay $20 because all the money I earn beyond my basic needs is going to charities.
I can understand the CC BY issue, if you’ve had problems with it in the past. If you think you can have more impact by retaining property over what you write, then this is what you should do.
I don’t think I will pay $20 because all the money I earn beyond my basic needs is going to charities.
If $20 got you even a 1% chance to find out that much of your money and effort is going to the wrong charities and causes, wouldn’t that be a good deal? Error correction is high value.
I think what EA is doing by getting people to donate that much (all above basic needs) is extremely harmful to people like you. I’d believe that even if I didn’t also believe that the majority of EA causes and efforts were counter-productive.
There’s something really problematic about thinking a cause is so important that you’ll make large personal sacrifices for it, but not being willing to do much to pursue potential error correction. EA has a lot of people who will go to great lengths to help their causes – they just are so sure they’re right(?) that they don’t seem to think debating critics is very important. It’s weird. If you think every dollar you donate is a big deal, you should also think every tiny bit of risk reduction and error correction is a big deal. Those things are scarcer than dollars and can easily have larger impacts. But I come here and say I think EA is wrong about important issues, and I want to debate, and I ask if EA has any organized debate methods or even just individuals who’d be happy to debate much. And the answer was no and also no one seems to think that’s very bad or risky. That shows a widespread lack of respect for the risk of being wrong about causes that people are investing all their money above basic needs in, and a disinterest in criticism.
Anyway, if you find my ideas implausible and not worth pursuing or debating, or still don’t really value my time more than the time of the next guy you could talk with instead, then we should part ways.
Sorry—I exagerated a bit. I do not donate everything above my basic needs—still quite a good chunk but not everything.
I try to spend quite some time on error correction (and sometimes buy books instead of getting them from a library) - but in this realm I am still weighting that against, say, the impact I could obtain by donating to an animal charity instead. But I’m ready to do some spending if I feel there’s a good chance to know more and improve.
The problem here is rather that I am not sure subscribing to this forum will really allow me to improve.
I absolutely agree to your claim that EA has a lack of organized debate method, and could improve on fighting against bias. I could probably improve on that too, I think. I can agree with the “lacking methodology”.
However, to actually improve, I need practical advice on how to improve. Or an example: for instance, seeing a debate where I see that a specific claim very important in EA is not impactful (for instance, that donating to charities that do corporate outreach in factory farming), and seeing the methodology that led to this claim.
I want to point out that criticism of what exists currently is important but not enough—the way I personally work is that I need to see something better in order to update correctly. Then I can be inspired by that better approach.
For instance, I read your criticism of The Scout Mindset—it’s interesting, there are good points, for instance that the examples she gives could be really biased. But what would add even more value to your post is recommending a book which does the same thing but better (so basically, a book about how to get better at updating how we view the world, written in a clear, streamlined way, with examples and practical advice—just more rigorous).
I really like to improve. But I need practical stuff for that—and I asked for it and still feel you didn’t answer that (besides taking up a debate policy—you also made a list of actions but with no links to go deeper).
I fear it could prove difficult for you to spread your ideas even further without a greater focus on that part.
But I come here and say I think EA is wrong about important issues
By the way, have you issued claims about EA being wrong on its list of priorities ? You have done so on methodology—which is important, but not the most engaging topic, so few people interacted with it (which is too bad). But have tried to make more specific claims, like “EA is wrong about putting effort on factory farming” ?
Oh, I had wrote a full answer in your curi.us debate space, but it says I need an account (it’s weird that the “post public answer” box appears if it doesn’t even if I don’t have an account).
I think I’ll take up your offer to have an access to the forum just for a few months, please.
Oh, and thanks for the concern you’re showing me, that’s kind :)
OK, I gave CF forum posting access to your account.
You’re right that I should make the curi.us comment section clearer than the current small-print note. If you lost the text of what you wrote, I should be able to retrieve it for you from logs.
To post on my forum, you have to pay $20 (once, not recurring). I know the communication on this isn’t amazing (Discourse has limited options) though there should be a banner and some info about it in a few places, but I know sometimes people still don’t see it. There’s a subscribe button on the home page but it’s in a menu on mobile instead of directly visible. It takes you to https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/s and then the payment flow is with a standard plugin that uses Stripe.
If it’s a financial burden for you, I can give you free access.
If you can afford it, then I’ll have to ask you to pay, because my general policy is if people value a discussion with me less than $20 then I shouldn’t talk with them. I skip that policy when I go participate at other communities, but I’m quitting the EA forum now.
I also just wrote more about my issues with the CC BY license at https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/WEAXu8yTt5XbKq4wJ/ignoring-small-errors?commentId=Z7Nh36x3brvzC3Jpm
Ok—I though the $20 were for making posts, I didn’t think it was for answering.
I don’t think I will pay $20 because all the money I earn beyond my basic needs is going to charities.
I can understand the CC BY issue, if you’ve had problems with it in the past. If you think you can have more impact by retaining property over what you write, then this is what you should do.
If $20 got you even a 1% chance to find out that much of your money and effort is going to the wrong charities and causes, wouldn’t that be a good deal? Error correction is high value.
I think what EA is doing by getting people to donate that much (all above basic needs) is extremely harmful to people like you. I’d believe that even if I didn’t also believe that the majority of EA causes and efforts were counter-productive.
There’s something really problematic about thinking a cause is so important that you’ll make large personal sacrifices for it, but not being willing to do much to pursue potential error correction. EA has a lot of people who will go to great lengths to help their causes – they just are so sure they’re right(?) that they don’t seem to think debating critics is very important. It’s weird. If you think every dollar you donate is a big deal, you should also think every tiny bit of risk reduction and error correction is a big deal. Those things are scarcer than dollars and can easily have larger impacts. But I come here and say I think EA is wrong about important issues, and I want to debate, and I ask if EA has any organized debate methods or even just individuals who’d be happy to debate much. And the answer was no and also no one seems to think that’s very bad or risky. That shows a widespread lack of respect for the risk of being wrong about causes that people are investing all their money above basic needs in, and a disinterest in criticism.
Anyway, if you find my ideas implausible and not worth pursuing or debating, or still don’t really value my time more than the time of the next guy you could talk with instead, then we should part ways.
Sorry—I exagerated a bit. I do not donate everything above my basic needs—still quite a good chunk but not everything.
I try to spend quite some time on error correction (and sometimes buy books instead of getting them from a library) - but in this realm I am still weighting that against, say, the impact I could obtain by donating to an animal charity instead. But I’m ready to do some spending if I feel there’s a good chance to know more and improve.
The problem here is rather that I am not sure subscribing to this forum will really allow me to improve.
I absolutely agree to your claim that EA has a lack of organized debate method, and could improve on fighting against bias. I could probably improve on that too, I think. I can agree with the “lacking methodology”.
However, to actually improve, I need practical advice on how to improve. Or an example: for instance, seeing a debate where I see that a specific claim very important in EA is not impactful (for instance, that donating to charities that do corporate outreach in factory farming), and seeing the methodology that led to this claim.
I want to point out that criticism of what exists currently is important but not enough—the way I personally work is that I need to see something better in order to update correctly. Then I can be inspired by that better approach.
For instance, I read your criticism of The Scout Mindset—it’s interesting, there are good points, for instance that the examples she gives could be really biased. But what would add even more value to your post is recommending a book which does the same thing but better (so basically, a book about how to get better at updating how we view the world, written in a clear, streamlined way, with examples and practical advice—just more rigorous).
I really like to improve. But I need practical stuff for that—and I asked for it and still feel you didn’t answer that (besides taking up a debate policy—you also made a list of actions but with no links to go deeper).
I fear it could prove difficult for you to spread your ideas even further without a greater focus on that part.
By the way, have you issued claims about EA being wrong on its list of priorities ? You have done so on methodology—which is important, but not the most engaging topic, so few people interacted with it (which is too bad). But have tried to make more specific claims, like “EA is wrong about putting effort on factory farming” ?
I don’t want to CC BY license my replies, so here are links. I don’t want to reply this way in general and may not do it again.
https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/elliot-temple-and-corentin-biteau-discussion/1543/5?u=elliot
https://discuss.criticalfallibilism.com/t/elliot-temple-and-corentin-biteau-discussion/1543/6?u=elliot
Oh, I had wrote a full answer in your curi.us debate space, but it says I need an account (it’s weird that the “post public answer” box appears if it doesn’t even if I don’t have an account).
I think I’ll take up your offer to have an access to the forum just for a few months, please.
Oh, and thanks for the concern you’re showing me, that’s kind :)
OK, I gave CF forum posting access to your account.
You’re right that I should make the curi.us comment section clearer than the current small-print note. If you lost the text of what you wrote, I should be able to retrieve it for you from logs.