I feel like we are starting to hit a dead-end here, which is a pity since I really want to learn stuff.
The problem is :
I am interested in learning concrete stuff to improve the way I think about the world
You point out that methodology and better norms for rationality and debate are necessary to get a productive conversation (which I can agree with, to some extent)
Except I have no way of knowing that your conclusions are better than mine. It’s entirely possible that yours are better—you spent a lot of time on this. But I just don’t have the motivation to do the many, many prerequisites you asked for, unless I’ve seen from experience that they provide better results.
This is the show don’t tell problem: you’ve told me you’ve got better conclusions (which is possible). But you’ve not shown me that. I need to see that from experience.
I may be motivated to spend some time on improving rationality norms, and change my conclusions. But not without a (little) debate on some concrete stuff that would help understand that I can improve.
How about challenging my conclusion that energy depletion is a problem neglected by many, and that we’re starting to hit limits to growth ? We could do that in the other post you pointed to.
This is an archetypical non-apology that puts blame on the person you’re speaking to.
True. It was a mistake on my part. It’s just that the sentence “I’m used to ignoring comments that assume I don’t exist” felt a bit passive-agressive, so I got passive-agressive as well on that.
It’s not very rational. I shouldn’t have done that, you’re right.
How about challenging my conclusion that energy depletion is a problem neglected by many, and that we’re starting to hit limits to growth ?
OK, as a kind of demonstration, I will try engaging about this some, and I will even skip over asking about why this issue is an important priority compared to alternative issues.
First question: What thinkers/ideas have you read that disagree with you, and what did you do to address them and conclude that they’re wrong?
First, most of what I’m saying challenges deeply what is usually said about energy, resources or the economy.
So the ideas that disagree with me are the established consensus, which is why I’m already familiar with the counter-arguments usually put forward against to energy depletion:
We’ve heard about it earlier and didn’t “run out”
Prices will increase gradually
Technology will improve and solve the problem
We can have a bigger economy and less energy
We’ll just adapt
So in my post I tried my best to adress these points by explaining why ecological economists and other experts on energy and resources think they won’t solve the problem (and I’m in the process of writing a post more focused on adressing explicited these counter-arguments).
I also read some more advanced arguments against what these experts said (debates with Richard Heinberg, articles criticizing Jean-Marc Jancovici). But each time I’ve seen limits to the reasoning. For instance, what was said againt the Limits to growth report (turns out most criticism didn’t adress the core points of the report).
I’m not aware of any major thinker that is fluent on the topic of energy and its relationship with the economy, and optimistic on the topic. However, the one that was the most knowledgeable about this that I found was Dave Denkenberger, director of ALLFED, and we had a lot of exchanges, where he put some solid criticism against what I said. For some of what I wrote, I had to change my mind. For some other stuff, I had to check the litterature and I found limits that he didn’t take into account (like on investment). This was interesting (and we still do not agree, which I find weird). But I tried my best to find reviewers that could criticize what I said.
I feel like we are starting to hit a dead-end here, which is a pity since I really want to learn stuff.
The problem is :
I am interested in learning concrete stuff to improve the way I think about the world
You point out that methodology and better norms for rationality and debate are necessary to get a productive conversation (which I can agree with, to some extent)
Except I have no way of knowing that your conclusions are better than mine. It’s entirely possible that yours are better—you spent a lot of time on this. But I just don’t have the motivation to do the many, many prerequisites you asked for, unless I’ve seen from experience that they provide better results.
This is the show don’t tell problem: you’ve told me you’ve got better conclusions (which is possible). But you’ve not shown me that. I need to see that from experience.
I may be motivated to spend some time on improving rationality norms, and change my conclusions. But not without a (little) debate on some concrete stuff that would help understand that I can improve.
How about challenging my conclusion that energy depletion is a problem neglected by many, and that we’re starting to hit limits to growth ? We could do that in the other post you pointed to.
True. It was a mistake on my part. It’s just that the sentence “I’m used to ignoring comments that assume I don’t exist” felt a bit passive-agressive, so I got passive-agressive as well on that.
It’s not very rational. I shouldn’t have done that, you’re right.
OK, as a kind of demonstration, I will try engaging about this some, and I will even skip over asking about why this issue is an important priority compared to alternative issues.
First question: What thinkers/ideas have you read that disagree with you, and what did you do to address them and conclude that they’re wrong?
Ok, interesting question.
First, most of what I’m saying challenges deeply what is usually said about energy, resources or the economy.
So the ideas that disagree with me are the established consensus, which is why I’m already familiar with the counter-arguments usually put forward against to energy depletion:
We’ve heard about it earlier and didn’t “run out”
Prices will increase gradually
Technology will improve and solve the problem
We can have a bigger economy and less energy
We’ll just adapt
So in my post I tried my best to adress these points by explaining why ecological economists and other experts on energy and resources think they won’t solve the problem (and I’m in the process of writing a post more focused on adressing explicited these counter-arguments).
I also read some more advanced arguments against what these experts said (debates with Richard Heinberg, articles criticizing Jean-Marc Jancovici). But each time I’ve seen limits to the reasoning. For instance, what was said againt the Limits to growth report (turns out most criticism didn’t adress the core points of the report).
I’m not aware of any major thinker that is fluent on the topic of energy and its relationship with the economy, and optimistic on the topic. However, the one that was the most knowledgeable about this that I found was Dave Denkenberger, director of ALLFED, and we had a lot of exchanges, where he put some solid criticism against what I said. For some of what I wrote, I had to change my mind. For some other stuff, I had to check the litterature and I found limits that he didn’t take into account (like on investment). This was interesting (and we still do not agree, which I find weird). But I tried my best to find reviewers that could criticize what I said.