I don’t think most people outside left-anarchism would equate “state” with the existence of any unjust hierarchies. Indeed, defining a state in that way seems to be begging the question with regard to anarchy’s desirability and feasibility.
Whether or not Friedman provides ways to organise society without a state, he is clearly trying to do so, at least by any definition of “state” that a non-(left-anarchist) would recognise (e.g. an entity with a monopoly on legitimate violence).
I don’t think most people outside left-anarchism would equate “state” with the existence of any unjust hierarchies. Indeed, defining a state in that way seems to be begging the question with regard to anarchy’s desirability and feasibility.
I don’t see where anonea2021 has made that claim. Did you mean to write “property” instead of “state” in this paragraph? (genuine question) Either way, I’m having trouble following what you want to say with this paragraph.
What anonea2021 states:
From the perspective of every other lineage of anarchists, private property is one of the things that enforces injust hierarchies.
I can confirm that this indeed the view of every other lineage of anarchists that I’m aware of. The anarchist’s goal is to minimize unjust hierarchies. And given that private property (esp. of the means of production) is seen as one of the main causes of unjust hierarchies in today’s world, it is plausible that a movement that tries create a society which structures itself completely along the lines of private property, is seen as utterly missing the point of anarchism. Thus “anarcho-”capitalism.
I don’t see where anonea2021 has made that claim. Did you mean to write “property” instead of “state” in this paragraph? (genuine question) Either way, I’m having trouble following what you want to say with this paragraph.
Yes, it seems like there’s some crossed wires here.
I claimed that ancaps are “clearly trying to formulate a way for a capitalist society to exist without a state”. The intended implicature was that since anarchy = the absence of a state (according to common understanding, the dictionary definition, and etymology) it was therefore proper to call them anarchists.
anonea2021 responded with “From the perspective of every other lineage of anarchists, private property is one of the things that enforces injust hierarchies.” I was confused about this, since it didn’t seem like a direct response to my claims. I wasn’t sure whether to read it as (a) a claim that unjust hierarchies = a state (which seemed like a bad definition of “state”), or (b) a claim that anarchism wasn’t actually about the absence of a state but instead about abolishing unjust hierarchies in general (which seemed like a bad, question-begging definition of “anarchism”, given that ~everyone wants to minimise unjust hierarchies).
I tried to respond to the superposition of these two interpretations, which probably led to my phrasing being more confusing than it needed to be.
I can confirm that this indeed the view of every other lineage of anarchists that I’m aware of. The anarchist’s goal is to minimize unjust hierarchies. And given that private property (esp. of the means of production) is seen as one of the main causes of unjust hierarchies in today’s world, it is plausible that a movement that tries create a society which structures itself completely along the lines of private property, is seen as utterly missing the point of anarchism. Thus “anarcho-”capitalism.
As before, this begs the question. Everyone wants to minimise unjust hierarchies, so that’s not a useful description of anarchism. People who disagree about which hierarchies are unjust, what interventions are effective for reducing them, and what the costs of those interventions are, will end up advocating for radically different systems of government. Some of those will end up advocating for a society without a state, and it’s useful to refer to that subset of positions as “anarchist” even if they are very different from each other.
Anarcho-capitalism is really quite different from other forms of capitalist social organisation, and its distinctive feature is the absence of a coercive state. “Anarcho-capitalism” is thus a completely appropriate name for it – indeed, it’s hard to see what other name would fit better. Also, it’s what they call themselves, and we should heavily lean towards using people’s own self-labels.
It’s fine to just say “anarcho-capitalism is radically different from other forms of anarchism, and anarchists on the left will typically deeply disagree with its tenets”. That much is clear. Putting scare-quotes around “anarcho” is bad for the discourse in multiple ways.
I don’t think most people outside left-anarchism would equate “state” with the existence of any unjust hierarchies. Indeed, defining a state in that way seems to be begging the question with regard to anarchy’s desirability and feasibility.
Whether or not Friedman provides ways to organise society without a state, he is clearly trying to do so, at least by any definition of “state” that a non-(left-anarchist) would recognise (e.g. an entity with a monopoly on legitimate violence).
I don’t see where anonea2021 has made that claim. Did you mean to write “property” instead of “state” in this paragraph? (genuine question)
Either way, I’m having trouble following what you want to say with this paragraph.
What anonea2021 states:
I can confirm that this indeed the view of every other lineage of anarchists that I’m aware of.
The anarchist’s goal is to minimize unjust hierarchies. And given that private property (esp. of the means of production) is seen as one of the main causes of unjust hierarchies in today’s world, it is plausible that a movement that tries create a society which structures itself completely along the lines of private property, is seen as utterly missing the point of anarchism. Thus “anarcho-”capitalism.
Yes, it seems like there’s some crossed wires here.
I claimed that ancaps are “clearly trying to formulate a way for a capitalist society to exist without a state”. The intended implicature was that since anarchy = the absence of a state (according to common understanding, the dictionary definition, and etymology) it was therefore proper to call them anarchists.
anonea2021 responded with “From the perspective of every other lineage of anarchists, private property is one of the things that enforces injust hierarchies.” I was confused about this, since it didn’t seem like a direct response to my claims. I wasn’t sure whether to read it as (a) a claim that unjust hierarchies = a state (which seemed like a bad definition of “state”), or (b) a claim that anarchism wasn’t actually about the absence of a state but instead about abolishing unjust hierarchies in general (which seemed like a bad, question-begging definition of “anarchism”, given that ~everyone wants to minimise unjust hierarchies).
I tried to respond to the superposition of these two interpretations, which probably led to my phrasing being more confusing than it needed to be.
As before, this begs the question. Everyone wants to minimise unjust hierarchies, so that’s not a useful description of anarchism. People who disagree about which hierarchies are unjust, what interventions are effective for reducing them, and what the costs of those interventions are, will end up advocating for radically different systems of government. Some of those will end up advocating for a society without a state, and it’s useful to refer to that subset of positions as “anarchist” even if they are very different from each other.
Anarcho-capitalism is really quite different from other forms of capitalist social organisation, and its distinctive feature is the absence of a coercive state. “Anarcho-capitalism” is thus a completely appropriate name for it – indeed, it’s hard to see what other name would fit better. Also, it’s what they call themselves, and we should heavily lean towards using people’s own self-labels.
It’s fine to just say “anarcho-capitalism is radically different from other forms of anarchism, and anarchists on the left will typically deeply disagree with its tenets”. That much is clear. Putting scare-quotes around “anarcho” is bad for the discourse in multiple ways.