But we would also be heading toward a more action-oriented and less communal group, which could reduce the attraction to manipulative people
I don’t understand this. We would be trending towards seeking more power, which would further attract power-seekers. We have already substantially gone down this path. You might have different models of what attracts manipulative people. My model is doing visibly power-seeking and high-status work is one of the most common attractors.
Moreover, today’s community is older and more BS-resident with some legibly-trustworthy leaders.
I think we have overall become substantially less BS-resistant as we have grown and have drastically increased the surface area of the community, though it depends a bit on the details.
But you seem to think there would be a big and harmful net effect—can you explain?
Yep, I would be up for doing that, but alas won’t have time for it this week. It seemed better to leave a comment voicing my concerns at all, even if I don’t have time to explain them in-depth, though I do apologize for not having the time to explain them in full.
I don’t understand this. We would be trending towards seeking more power, which would further attract power-seekers. We have already substantially gone down this path. You might have different models of what attracts manipulative people. My model is doing visibly power-seeking and high-status work is one of the most common attractors.
I’m concerned about people seeking power in order to mistreat, mislead, or manipulate others (cult-like stuff), as seems more likely in a social community, and less likely in a group of people who share interests in actually doing things in the world. I’m in favour of people gaining influence, all things equal!
Alas, I think that isn’t actually what tends to attract the most competent manipulative people. Random social communities might attract incompetent or average-competence manipulative people, but those are much less of a risk than the competent ones. In general, professional communities, in particular ones aiming for relatively unconditional power, strike me as having a much higher density of manipulative people than random social communities.
I also think when I go into my models here, the term “manipulative” feels somewhat misleading, but it would take me a while longer to explain alternative phrasings.
TBC, this feels like a bit of a straw man of my actual view, which is that power and communality jointly contribute to risks of cultishness and manipulativeness.
I don’t understand this. We would be trending towards seeking more power, which would further attract power-seekers. We have already substantially gone down this path. You might have different models of what attracts manipulative people. My model is doing visibly power-seeking and high-status work is one of the most common attractors.
I think we have overall become substantially less BS-resistant as we have grown and have drastically increased the surface area of the community, though it depends a bit on the details.
Yep, I would be up for doing that, but alas won’t have time for it this week. It seemed better to leave a comment voicing my concerns at all, even if I don’t have time to explain them in-depth, though I do apologize for not having the time to explain them in full.
I’m concerned about people seeking power in order to mistreat, mislead, or manipulate others (cult-like stuff), as seems more likely in a social community, and less likely in a group of people who share interests in actually doing things in the world. I’m in favour of people gaining influence, all things equal!
Alas, I think that isn’t actually what tends to attract the most competent manipulative people. Random social communities might attract incompetent or average-competence manipulative people, but those are much less of a risk than the competent ones. In general, professional communities, in particular ones aiming for relatively unconditional power, strike me as having a much higher density of manipulative people than random social communities.
I also think when I go into my models here, the term “manipulative” feels somewhat misleading, but it would take me a while longer to explain alternative phrasings.
TBC, this feels like a bit of a straw man of my actual view, which is that power and communality jointly contribute to risks of cultishness and manipulativeness.
nods My concerns have very little to do with cultishness, so my guess is we are talking about very different concerns here.