Cool post. I had no idea that this debate over steelmanning existed. Glad to see someone on this side of it.
Lots of interesting subtleties in these posts, but the whole thing perplexes me as an issue of practical advice. It seems to me that parts of this debate suggest a picture of conversation where one person is actually paying close attention to the distinction between steelmanning and ITT and explicitly using those concepts to choose what to do next in the conversation. But I feel like I’ve basically never done that, despite spending lots of time trying to be charitable and teaching undergrads to do the same.
It makes me want to draw a distinction between steelmanning and ITT on the one hand and charity on the other (while acknowledging Rob’s point that the word “charity” gets used in all kinds of ways). It’s along the lines of the distinction in ethics between act types (lying, saying true things) and virtues (honesty): Steelmanning and passing ITT are the act types, and charity is the virtue.
The picture that emerges for me, then, is something like this: (1) We suppose a certain goal is appropriate. You enter a conversation with someone you disagree with with the goal of working together to both learn what you can from each other and better approach the truth. (2) Given that that’s your goal, one thing that will help is being charitable—meaning, roughly, taking ideas you don’t agree with seriously. (3) Doing that will involve (a) considering the thoughts the other person is actually having (even at the expense of ignoring what seems to you a better argument along the same lines) as well as (b) considering other related thoughts that could be used to bolster the other person’s position (even at the expense of straying to some degree from what the other person is actually thinking). Talking about ITT brings favorable attention to (a), and talking about steelmanning brings favorable attention to (b).
Yes, there is some kind of tradeoff between (a) and (b). Ozy’s Marxist & liberal example nicely illustrates the dangers of leaning too hard in the (b) direction: In trying to present the other person’s argument in the form that seems strongest to you, you end up missing what the other person is actually saying, including the most crucial insights present in or underlying their argument. Your dog & cat example nicely illustrates the dangers of leaning too hard in the (a) direction: In trying to get into your friend’s exact headspace, you would again miss the other person’s actual insight.
Given this picture, it seems to me the best practical advice is something like this: Keep that overall goal of collaborative truth-seeking in mind, and try to feel when your uncharitable impulses are leading you away from that goal and when your charity is leading you toward it. You certainly don’t want to handle the tradeoff between (a) and (b) by choosing your loyalty to one or the other at the outset (adopting the rule “Don’t steelman” or “Don’t use the ITT”). And you don’t even really want to handle it by periodically reevaluating which one to focus on for the next portion of the conversation. That’s kind of like trying to balance on a skateboard by periodically thinking, “Which way should I lean now? Right or left?” rather than focusing on your sense of balance, trying to feel the answer to the question “Am I balanced?”. You want to develop an overall sense of charity, which is partly a sense of balance between (a) and (b).
Cool post. I had no idea that this debate over steelmanning existed. Glad to see someone on this side of it.
Lots of interesting subtleties in these posts, but the whole thing perplexes me as an issue of practical advice. It seems to me that parts of this debate suggest a picture of conversation where one person is actually paying close attention to the distinction between steelmanning and ITT and explicitly using those concepts to choose what to do next in the conversation. But I feel like I’ve basically never done that, despite spending lots of time trying to be charitable and teaching undergrads to do the same.
It makes me want to draw a distinction between steelmanning and ITT on the one hand and charity on the other (while acknowledging Rob’s point that the word “charity” gets used in all kinds of ways). It’s along the lines of the distinction in ethics between act types (lying, saying true things) and virtues (honesty): Steelmanning and passing ITT are the act types, and charity is the virtue.
The picture that emerges for me, then, is something like this: (1) We suppose a certain goal is appropriate. You enter a conversation with someone you disagree with with the goal of working together to both learn what you can from each other and better approach the truth. (2) Given that that’s your goal, one thing that will help is being charitable—meaning, roughly, taking ideas you don’t agree with seriously. (3) Doing that will involve (a) considering the thoughts the other person is actually having (even at the expense of ignoring what seems to you a better argument along the same lines) as well as (b) considering other related thoughts that could be used to bolster the other person’s position (even at the expense of straying to some degree from what the other person is actually thinking). Talking about ITT brings favorable attention to (a), and talking about steelmanning brings favorable attention to (b).
Yes, there is some kind of tradeoff between (a) and (b). Ozy’s Marxist & liberal example nicely illustrates the dangers of leaning too hard in the (b) direction: In trying to present the other person’s argument in the form that seems strongest to you, you end up missing what the other person is actually saying, including the most crucial insights present in or underlying their argument. Your dog & cat example nicely illustrates the dangers of leaning too hard in the (a) direction: In trying to get into your friend’s exact headspace, you would again miss the other person’s actual insight.
Given this picture, it seems to me the best practical advice is something like this: Keep that overall goal of collaborative truth-seeking in mind, and try to feel when your uncharitable impulses are leading you away from that goal and when your charity is leading you toward it. You certainly don’t want to handle the tradeoff between (a) and (b) by choosing your loyalty to one or the other at the outset (adopting the rule “Don’t steelman” or “Don’t use the ITT”). And you don’t even really want to handle it by periodically reevaluating which one to focus on for the next portion of the conversation. That’s kind of like trying to balance on a skateboard by periodically thinking, “Which way should I lean now? Right or left?” rather than focusing on your sense of balance, trying to feel the answer to the question “Am I balanced?”. You want to develop an overall sense of charity, which is partly a sense of balance between (a) and (b).