Weak-downvoted; I think it’s fair game to say an org acted in an untrustworthy way, but I think it’s pretty essential to actually sketch the argument rather than screenshotting their claims and not specifying what they’ve done that contradicts the claims. It seems bad to leave the reader in a position of being like, “I don’t know what the author means, but I guess Epoch must have done something flagrantly contradictory to these goals and I shouldn’t trust them,” rather than elucidating the evidence so the reader can actually “form their own judgment.” Ben_West then asked in two comments for these specifics, and I still don’t know what you mean (and I think I’m pretty high-percentile among forum readers on the dimension of “familiar with drama/alleged bad behavior of AI safety orgs”).
Would remove the downvote if you fill in the implicit part of the argument here: what information/explanation would a reader need to know what you mean by “it certainly seems to me that the AI Safety community was too ready to trust Epoch” in the context of these screenshots?
Honestly, I don’t care enough to post any further replies. I’ve spent too much time on this whole Epoch thing already (not just through this post, but through other comments). I’ve been reflecting recently on how I spend my time and I’ve realised that I often make poor decisions here. I’ve shared my opinion, if your opinion is different, that’s perfectly fine, but I’m out.
It can be a mistake to have trusted someone without there necessarily having been misbehavior. I’m not saying there wasn’t misbehavior, that’s just not my focus here.
I took a look at the post announcing Epoch.
It was interesting noting this comment by Ofer:
Jaime Sevilla replied:
Additionally, looking at the post itself:
It’s up to the reader to form their own judgement, but it certainly seems to me that the AI Safety community was too ready to trust Epoch.
Weak-downvoted; I think it’s fair game to say an org acted in an untrustworthy way, but I think it’s pretty essential to actually sketch the argument rather than screenshotting their claims and not specifying what they’ve done that contradicts the claims. It seems bad to leave the reader in a position of being like, “I don’t know what the author means, but I guess Epoch must have done something flagrantly contradictory to these goals and I shouldn’t trust them,” rather than elucidating the evidence so the reader can actually “form their own judgment.” Ben_West then asked in two comments for these specifics, and I still don’t know what you mean (and I think I’m pretty high-percentile among forum readers on the dimension of “familiar with drama/alleged bad behavior of AI safety orgs”).
Would remove the downvote if you fill in the implicit part of the argument here: what information/explanation would a reader need to know what you mean by “it certainly seems to me that the AI Safety community was too ready to trust Epoch” in the context of these screenshots?
Honestly, I don’t care enough to post any further replies. I’ve spent too much time on this whole Epoch thing already (not just through this post, but through other comments). I’ve been reflecting recently on how I spend my time and I’ve realised that I often make poor decisions here. I’ve shared my opinion, if your opinion is different, that’s perfectly fine, but I’m out.
Why do you think we were too ready to trust them? Are you implying that they later violated what Jaime says here?
Trust has never been just about whether someone technically lied.
Sure, but I just genuinely don’t know what you are complaining about here. I can make a few guesses but it seems better to just ask what you mean.
It can be a mistake to have trusted someone without there necessarily having been misbehavior. I’m not saying there wasn’t misbehavior, that’s just not my focus here.