As a moderator, I think some elements of this and previous comments break Forum norms. Specifically, unsubstantiated accusations of lying or misrepresentation and phrases like “when has a utilitarian ever cared about common sense” are unnecessarily rude and do not reflect a generous and collaborative mindset.
We want to be clear that this comment is in response to the tone and approach, not the stance taken by the commenter. As a moderator team we believe it’s really important to be able to discuss all perspectives on the situation with an open mind and without censoring any perspectives.
Was anything I said an “unsubstantiated accusation of lying”?
No. Perhaps it was an accusation. But it was not unsubstantiated. It was substantiated. Because I provided a straightforward argument as to why utilitarians cannot be trusted in this situation.
If you disagree with the conclusion of this argument, that’s fine. But the proper response to that is to explain why you think the argument is unsound. Not to use your mod powers.
So, then, let me ask you: why do you think this argument is unsound (assuming that you do)?
If you cannot answer this question, then you cannot honestly say that my “accusation” was unsubstantiated.
Something similar applies to my other question: “when has a utilitarian ever cared about common sense?” If you care to provide examples, I’d be happy to hear you out. Because that is why I asked the question.
But if you cannot find examples (and so do not like what the answer to my question may be), then I fail to see how that is my fault. Is asking critical questions “rude”? If yes, then quite frankly that reflects poorly on the “Form norms”.
As does, by the way, the selective enforcement of these norms. I know that some moderators insist that enforcement of Forum norms has nothing to do with the offender’s point-of-view. But it does not take a PhD in critical analysis to see this as plainly false.
Since, as any impartial lurker on the forum could tell you, there are a handful of high-status dogmatists on here that consistently misrepresent the views of those that disagree with them; misrepresent expert consensus; and are rude, condescending, arrogant, and combative.
(Note: I am not naming names, here, so no accusation is being made. But you know who they are. And if you don’t, that speaks to the strength of the in-group bias endemic to EA.)
But I have yet to see any one of these individuals get a “warning” from a moderator. And no one who I’ve discussed this issue with has either. So, it is genuinely hard to believe that these norms are not being enforced selectively.
In fairness, sometimes the rules are necessary. I get that. You want to keep things civil, and fair enough. But it’s plainly obvious that the rules are often abused, too.
This cycle of abuse is as follows.
Someone disagrees with the predominant EA in-group thinking.
Said person voices their concern with said in-group thinking on the Forum.
Said person is met with character assassinations, misrepresentations and strawmen arguments, ad hominens, and so on. This violates Forum norms, but these norms are not enforced.
Said person is not a saint. So, they respond to this onslaught of hostility with hostility in turn. This time, Forum norms are conveniently enforced.
Said person is now deemed to be arguing “in bad faith”.
Said person’s concerns (expressed in step 2) are now dismissed out of hand on account of the allegation that they were made in bad faith. So the relevant concerns expressed in step 2 go unaddressed. The echo-chamber intensifies. The Overton window narrows.
No one seems to clue into the fact that accusing someone of bad faith is, ironically enough, itself an ad hominen.
EAs continue to go on not knowing what they don’t know, and so thinking that they know everything.
Rinse and repeat for several years.
Hubris balloons to dangerously high levels.
FTX crashes.
And now we are here.
Note that steps 1-7 describe what happened to Emile Torres. Which is a shame, since many of the criticisms he expressed back in step 2 were, as it happens, correct (as, by now, should be obvious).
So perhaps if Torres hadn’t been banned, then we would have taken his concerns seriously. And perhaps if we took his concerns seriously, then none of this would have happened. Whoops. That’s a bad look, don’t you think?
So it’s worth noting, then, that the concerns I am forwarding here aren’t very different from the concerns that got Torres banned all those years ago. So, given what has since transpired, maybe it’s about time we take these concerns seriously. Because it was one thing to use mod powers to silence Torres when he made these critiques back then (please don’t play dumb, we both know it’s true). But to use mod powers to intimidate people for these same criticisms, even now, despite everything… that’s unconscionable.
I know you don’t like to hear that. But quite frankly, you need to hear it, because it’s true. I doubt that will be much comfort to you, though, so you’ll probably ban me for saying that. But once your power trip has ended, consider digging deep. Do some serious critical reflection. And then do better next time.
And I don’t mean, by the way, that you should do better as a moderator (though that is of course part of it). No. My request goes much deeper than this. I am requesting that you be better as a person. Be a better person than this. Be a better person than this.
Be honest with yourself. Have some integrity. Update your beliefs. And then accept your share of the responsibility for this mess.
But, most importantly:have some fucking shame.
Please.
It’s well overdue. Not just for you, but for all of us. Because we all contributed to this mess, in however minor a way.
Anyway. I think that’s everything I needed to say.
So, closing remarks: please don’t mistake my tough love for hostility. I understand that this is a tough time for everyone, and probably the mods especially. So, for that, I wish you all well. Genuinely. I really do wish you guys well. But, after the dust has settled, you all really need to think this stuff through. Reflect on what I said here. Really chew on it. Then do better going forward.
As a moderator, I think some elements of this and previous comments break Forum norms. Specifically, unsubstantiated accusations of lying or misrepresentation and phrases like “when has a utilitarian ever cared about common sense” are unnecessarily rude and do not reflect a generous and collaborative mindset.
We want to be clear that this comment is in response to the tone and approach, not the stance taken by the commenter. As a moderator team we believe it’s really important to be able to discuss all perspectives on the situation with an open mind and without censoring any perspectives.
We strongly encourage all users to approach discussions in good faith, especially when disagreeing—attacking the character of an author rather than the substance of their arguments is discouraged. This is a warning, please do better in the future.
Was anything I said an “unsubstantiated accusation of lying”?
No. Perhaps it was an accusation. But it was not unsubstantiated. It was substantiated. Because I provided a straightforward argument as to why utilitarians cannot be trusted in this situation.
If you disagree with the conclusion of this argument, that’s fine. But the proper response to that is to explain why you think the argument is unsound. Not to use your mod powers.
So, then, let me ask you: why do you think this argument is unsound (assuming that you do)?
If you cannot answer this question, then you cannot honestly say that my “accusation” was unsubstantiated.
Something similar applies to my other question: “when has a utilitarian ever cared about common sense?” If you care to provide examples, I’d be happy to hear you out. Because that is why I asked the question.
But if you cannot find examples (and so do not like what the answer to my question may be), then I fail to see how that is my fault. Is asking critical questions “rude”? If yes, then quite frankly that reflects poorly on the “Form norms”.
As does, by the way, the selective enforcement of these norms. I know that some moderators insist that enforcement of Forum norms has nothing to do with the offender’s point-of-view. But it does not take a PhD in critical analysis to see this as plainly false.
Since, as any impartial lurker on the forum could tell you, there are a handful of high-status dogmatists on here that consistently misrepresent the views of those that disagree with them; misrepresent expert consensus; and are rude, condescending, arrogant, and combative.
(Note: I am not naming names, here, so no accusation is being made. But you know who they are. And if you don’t, that speaks to the strength of the in-group bias endemic to EA.)
But I have yet to see any one of these individuals get a “warning” from a moderator. And no one who I’ve discussed this issue with has either. So, it is genuinely hard to believe that these norms are not being enforced selectively.
In fairness, sometimes the rules are necessary. I get that. You want to keep things civil, and fair enough. But it’s plainly obvious that the rules are often abused, too.
This cycle of abuse is as follows.
Someone disagrees with the predominant EA in-group thinking.
Said person voices their concern with said in-group thinking on the Forum.
Said person is met with character assassinations, misrepresentations and strawmen arguments, ad hominens, and so on. This violates Forum norms, but these norms are not enforced.
Said person is not a saint. So, they respond to this onslaught of hostility with hostility in turn. This time, Forum norms are conveniently enforced.
Said person is now deemed to be arguing “in bad faith”.
Said person’s concerns (expressed in step 2) are now dismissed out of hand on account of the allegation that they were made in bad faith. So the relevant concerns expressed in step 2 go unaddressed. The echo-chamber intensifies. The Overton window narrows.
No one seems to clue into the fact that accusing someone of bad faith is, ironically enough, itself an ad hominen.
EAs continue to go on not knowing what they don’t know, and so thinking that they know everything.
Rinse and repeat for several years.
Hubris balloons to dangerously high levels.
FTX crashes.
And now we are here.
Note that steps 1-7 describe what happened to Emile Torres. Which is a shame, since many of the criticisms he expressed back in step 2 were, as it happens, correct (as, by now, should be obvious).
So perhaps if Torres hadn’t been banned, then we would have taken his concerns seriously. And perhaps if we took his concerns seriously, then none of this would have happened. Whoops. That’s a bad look, don’t you think?
So it’s worth noting, then, that the concerns I am forwarding here aren’t very different from the concerns that got Torres banned all those years ago. So, given what has since transpired, maybe it’s about time we take these concerns seriously. Because it was one thing to use mod powers to silence Torres when he made these critiques back then (please don’t play dumb, we both know it’s true). But to use mod powers to intimidate people for these same criticisms, even now, despite everything… that’s unconscionable.
I know you don’t like to hear that. But quite frankly, you need to hear it, because it’s true. I doubt that will be much comfort to you, though, so you’ll probably ban me for saying that. But once your power trip has ended, consider digging deep. Do some serious critical reflection. And then do better next time.
And I don’t mean, by the way, that you should do better as a moderator (though that is of course part of it). No. My request goes much deeper than this. I am requesting that you be better as a person. Be a better person than this. Be a better person than this.
Be honest with yourself. Have some integrity. Update your beliefs. And then accept your share of the responsibility for this mess.
But, most importantly: have some fucking shame.
Please.
It’s well overdue. Not just for you, but for all of us. Because we all contributed to this mess, in however minor a way.
Anyway. I think that’s everything I needed to say.
So, closing remarks: please don’t mistake my tough love for hostility. I understand that this is a tough time for everyone, and probably the mods especially. So, for that, I wish you all well. Genuinely. I really do wish you guys well. But, after the dust has settled, you all really need to think this stuff through. Reflect on what I said here. Really chew on it. Then do better going forward.