I’m thinking more about this interpretation, but I’m not sure it is correct because WFP’s calculations are designed to be conservative in estimating the welfare improvements and exclude various welfare harms. For example, it looks like the broiler estimates exclude welfare harms from transport to slaughter. When these hours of suffering are added back in, the ratio between the two scenarios can go down.
As a hypothetical example, suppose BCC chickens are currently estimated to suffer 50 hours, while non-BCC chickens suffer 100 hours. If we add in 10 hours of suffering from transport for non-BCC chickens and only 2 hours for BCC chickens (as they are believed to be more heat tolerant), this ratio then increases to 53%. So while excluding harms from transport to slaughter is fine for keeping the absolute difference in hours suffered conservative (50=100-50 < 58 = 110-52), it does not necessarily keep the ratio conservative (50% vs 47% suffering reduction).
I think this is fine when comparing between different welfare levels for species, but I suspect it means they can not be used to compare directly to non-existence?
[Tagging @saulius as well since this seems relevant to the extent of whether cage-free is ‘still pretty bad’.]
I agree that the numbers don’t necessarily match due to experiences not accounted for, although I’d guess they’re close enough as a best guess in practice, because WFP covered the most important causes of suffering for egg-laying hens and broilers. (For broilers, they have a separate page for slaughter reform, which is also included in the BCC, but I suppose doesn’t reflect transportation or other differences during slaughter due to breed.)
My point was to highlight how great welfare reforms are in utilitarian suffering-reduction terms, relative to preventing animals from being farmed, in response to the original post. We could instead estimate a lower bound on the value of welfare reforms relative to preventing existence, to say welfare reforms are at least X% as good for each animal as preventing that animal from being born and farmed at all. The fact that WFP aimed to be conservative wrt the differences between conventional and reformed helps with this lower bound interpretation.
Also, in case you’re not only concerned with suffering, these welfare reforms might increase pleasure or other things of positive value in a chicken’s life, while preventing existence actually decreases them. So the welfare reforms could be even better for chickens relative to preventing existence than in my original interpretation. Again, I’d think of it like a lower bound.
I’m thinking more about this interpretation, but I’m not sure it is correct because WFP’s calculations are designed to be conservative in estimating the welfare improvements and exclude various welfare harms. For example, it looks like the broiler estimates exclude welfare harms from transport to slaughter. When these hours of suffering are added back in, the ratio between the two scenarios can go down.
As a hypothetical example, suppose BCC chickens are currently estimated to suffer 50 hours, while non-BCC chickens suffer 100 hours. If we add in 10 hours of suffering from transport for non-BCC chickens and only 2 hours for BCC chickens (as they are believed to be more heat tolerant), this ratio then increases to 53%. So while excluding harms from transport to slaughter is fine for keeping the absolute difference in hours suffered conservative (50=100-50 < 58 = 110-52), it does not necessarily keep the ratio conservative (50% vs 47% suffering reduction).
I think this is fine when comparing between different welfare levels for species, but I suspect it means they can not be used to compare directly to non-existence?
[Tagging @saulius as well since this seems relevant to the extent of whether cage-free is ‘still pretty bad’.]
I agree that the numbers don’t necessarily match due to experiences not accounted for, although I’d guess they’re close enough as a best guess in practice, because WFP covered the most important causes of suffering for egg-laying hens and broilers. (For broilers, they have a separate page for slaughter reform, which is also included in the BCC, but I suppose doesn’t reflect transportation or other differences during slaughter due to breed.)
My point was to highlight how great welfare reforms are in utilitarian suffering-reduction terms, relative to preventing animals from being farmed, in response to the original post. We could instead estimate a lower bound on the value of welfare reforms relative to preventing existence, to say welfare reforms are at least X% as good for each animal as preventing that animal from being born and farmed at all. The fact that WFP aimed to be conservative wrt the differences between conventional and reformed helps with this lower bound interpretation.
Also, in case you’re not only concerned with suffering, these welfare reforms might increase pleasure or other things of positive value in a chicken’s life, while preventing existence actually decreases them. So the welfare reforms could be even better for chickens relative to preventing existence than in my original interpretation. Again, I’d think of it like a lower bound.
Thank you, that’s all helpful!