Here’s an attempt at a meta-level diagnosis of the conversation. My goal is to explain how the EA Forum got filled with race-and-IQ conversations that nobody really wants to be having, with everyone feeling like the other side is at fault for this.
First, the two main characters.
Alice from Group A is:
High-contextualizing
Tends to bring up diversity as a value in conversations
Finds Bostrom’s apology highly inadequate
Absolutely does not want there to be object-level discussions of group IQ differences on the EA forum
Statements that look racist should be strongly challenged, especially since they seem very likely to alienate people from EA.
Bob from Group B is:
High-decoupling
Tends to bring up epistemics as a value in conversations.[1]
Probably thinks Bostrom’s apology was at least fine, if not great (since they can’t find a sentence in it which, when read literally, expresses something they think is wrong)
Thinks conversations on a topic can only be improved by additional true information on that topic
So statements that seem false should be strongly challenged.
I’m naturally more of a Group B, but as the discussion has evolved, I think I’ve moved toward understanding and agreeing with the concerns of Group A.[2] Hopefully this allows me to be moderately objective here—but I expect I’m still biased in the B direction, so I welcome those who are naturally more A to tear this to shreds.
With the groundwork laid, here’s my potted conversation between Alice from A and Bob from B.
Alice: Bostrom’s apology is inadequate. He should completely renounce the position in the old email. Saying there’s a racial IQ gap is completely unacceptable, and he should renounce this too.
Bob: I understand criticizing Bostrom’s apology, but as far as I can tell he was correct about the existence of an IQ gap. Here, look at these sources I found. You can’t ask him to say something false.
Alice: I absolutely do not want to discuss the question of whether or not there is an IQ gap. Please don’t bring up this question, it will be extremely alienating to tons of people for no benefit.
Bob: Hold up, it seems to me like you made a factual claim about race and IQ before I did. I’m just continuing the conversation you started. Am I not allowed to point out your mistake?
Alice: If you go around discussing questions of race and IQ, people will assume that you’re a racist. It could be ok to discuss this question in narrow contexts in academia, but it’s not ok here and the discussion is going to make us all look bad.
Bob: But you said something false! Are you saying we have to lie for good PR? I don’t support that.
Alice: I’m saying I don’t want to be having this object-level conversation, can’t we just agree to condemn racist ideas?
[debate continues, neither side is happy about it.]
I don’t mean to imply by this framing that diversity and epistemics are inherently in opposition—this is just an observation that each side mentions one more than the other. I expect both A and B care about both values.
Remembering other forums that were practically split apart by discussions of group IQ differences was one big update for me toward “discussing this on the EA forum is really bad.” This makes me sympathize more with wishing the conversation could have been avoided at all costs, although I’m less sure what to do going forward.
Here’s an attempt at a meta-level diagnosis of the conversation. My goal is to explain how the EA Forum got filled with race-and-IQ conversations that nobody really wants to be having, with everyone feeling like the other side is at fault for this.
First, the two main characters.
Alice from Group A is:
High-contextualizing
Tends to bring up diversity as a value in conversations
Finds Bostrom’s apology highly inadequate
Absolutely does not want there to be object-level discussions of group IQ differences on the EA forum
Statements that look racist should be strongly challenged, especially since they seem very likely to alienate people from EA.
Bob from Group B is:
High-decoupling
Tends to bring up epistemics as a value in conversations.[1]
Probably thinks Bostrom’s apology was at least fine, if not great (since they can’t find a sentence in it which, when read literally, expresses something they think is wrong)
Thinks conversations on a topic can only be improved by additional true information on that topic
So statements that seem false should be strongly challenged.
I’m naturally more of a Group B, but as the discussion has evolved, I think I’ve moved toward understanding and agreeing with the concerns of Group A.[2] Hopefully this allows me to be moderately objective here—but I expect I’m still biased in the B direction, so I welcome those who are naturally more A to tear this to shreds.
With the groundwork laid, here’s my potted conversation between Alice from A and Bob from B.
I don’t mean to imply by this framing that diversity and epistemics are inherently in opposition—this is just an observation that each side mentions one more than the other. I expect both A and B care about both values.
Remembering other forums that were practically split apart by discussions of group IQ differences was one big update for me toward “discussing this on the EA forum is really bad.” This makes me sympathize more with wishing the conversation could have been avoided at all costs, although I’m less sure what to do going forward.