It seems that the fundamental disagreement between you and some others is that you associate intrinsic value to time spent in school, while others believe that being in school is worthy only if it brings students positive health and income outcomes.
For example, you may believe that if a third grade student who fell behind in their first grade due to post-colonial education and is not learning anything anymore should be kept in school, e.g. where teachers beat children and fail the exams of grades below those which they teach, for another eight years, because school is good on its own.
Others may believe that a third-grade student who fell behind in their first grade does not need to attend the school where the only thing they learn is that they cannot do what is required from them, teachers cannot help them, and they receive beating for this situation. Instead, the finances which would be otherwise spent on keeping this student in school should be spent on, e.g. deworming, because this will enable the student to be healthy, energetic, and free, helping their family business.
you associate intrinsic value to time spent in school
not just me UNDP, Amartya Sen, Malala Yousafzai assume that time spent in school has intrinsic value.
I along with them want better schools, better teaching etc.. but the quality of the schooling system should detract from the fact that schooling has value.
https://www.cgdev.org/blog/does-education-need-qaly-and-lays-it
“The non-pecuniary returns to education—child health, delayed pregnancy and marriage, democratic participation and so on—are substantial in education systems that otherwise perform dismally on test scores (e.g. the positive impacts of secondary schooling in Ghana despite low gain in learning shown in Duflo, Dupas & Kremer 2017).
Looking across countries (Figure 2), there is precisely zero relationship between school quality (measured by the World Bank Harmonized Learning Outcomes) and the labour market rate of return on investment in schooling.”
So what seems like bad schooling in terms of test scores, still has instrumental and intrinsic value.
where teachers beat children and fail the exams of grades below those which they teach, for another eight years, because school is good on its own.
I am not in favor of punishment, yes schools in agricultural societies do beat children. Worse still in the classroom sometimes they face discrimination, made to sit apart from other kids based on caste etc.. Race in USA and South Africa played that same role.
Even so education is better, because tomorrow they grow up, teach in their own communities, or put pressure on governments for change. e.g. the civil rights movement in the US, which BTW had a lot of moral help from newly independent countries, and was a factor in Brown vs Board
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education#Background
Most countries independence leaders went to college in Western countries, we can be sure that they faced racism from society and from the colleges they went to. The education was useful nevertheless.
the finances which would be otherwise spent on keeping this student in school should be spent on e.g. deworming
deworming is so cheap because kids are in school. if they are not in school, you cant deworm them because the medicine is given in school.
I have to say, I have been doing this for over a decade, and I have never met a girl who said to me, you know, “I want to stay at home,” “I want to graze the cattle,” “I want to look after the siblings,” “I want to be a child bride.” Every single girl I meet wants to go to school. And that’s what we really want to do.
It seems that the fundamental disagreement between you and some others is that you associate intrinsic value to time spent in school, while others believe that being in school is worthy only if it brings students positive health and income outcomes.
For example, you may believe that if a third grade student who fell behind in their first grade due to post-colonial education and is not learning anything anymore should be kept in school, e.g. where teachers beat children and fail the exams of grades below those which they teach, for another eight years, because school is good on its own.
Others may believe that a third-grade student who fell behind in their first grade does not need to attend the school where the only thing they learn is that they cannot do what is required from them, teachers cannot help them, and they receive beating for this situation. Instead, the finances which would be otherwise spent on keeping this student in school should be spent on, e.g. deworming, because this will enable the student to be healthy, energetic, and free, helping their family business.
you captured the disagreement well
not just me UNDP, Amartya Sen, Malala Yousafzai assume that time spent in school has intrinsic value. I along with them want better schools, better teaching etc.. but the quality of the schooling system should detract from the fact that schooling has value.
https://www.cgdev.org/blog/does-education-need-qaly-and-lays-it “The non-pecuniary returns to education—child health, delayed pregnancy and marriage, democratic participation and so on—are substantial in education systems that otherwise perform dismally on test scores (e.g. the positive impacts of secondary schooling in Ghana despite low gain in learning shown in Duflo, Dupas & Kremer 2017).
Looking across countries (Figure 2), there is precisely zero relationship between school quality (measured by the World Bank Harmonized Learning Outcomes) and the labour market rate of return on investment in schooling.”
So what seems like bad schooling in terms of test scores, still has instrumental and intrinsic value.
I am not in favor of punishment, yes schools in agricultural societies do beat children. Worse still in the classroom sometimes they face discrimination, made to sit apart from other kids based on caste etc.. Race in USA and South Africa played that same role.
Even so education is better, because tomorrow they grow up, teach in their own communities, or put pressure on governments for change. e.g. the civil rights movement in the US, which BTW had a lot of moral help from newly independent countries, and was a factor in Brown vs Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education#Background
Most countries independence leaders went to college in Western countries, we can be sure that they faced racism from society and from the colleges they went to. The education was useful nevertheless.
deworming is so cheap because kids are in school. if they are not in school, you cant deworm them because the medicine is given in school.
Also J-PAL headlines deworming with “Deworming to increase school attendance” https://www.povertyactionlab.org/case-study/deworming-schools-improves-attendance-and-benefits-communities-over-long-term
Implicitly they assume education has intrinsic value.
no question the health benefits of deworming are important
“free” is a fantasy, most kids want to go to school, despite the poor learning environment.
the “family business” is tending to cows, farming, household chores etc., it should be considered similar to child labor.
Safeena Husain says
I have to say, I have been doing this for over a decade, and I have never met a girl who said to me, you know, “I want to stay at home,” “I want to graze the cattle,” “I want to look after the siblings,” “I want to be a child bride.” Every single girl I meet wants to go to school. And that’s what we really want to do.