“changes outlook towards life, makes married life less unequal for women, increases self-respect, self-confidence, allows for better participation in society”
I agree these are all benefits, but I class them as instrumental benefits, and imagine most others here do as well.
They are benefits inasmuch as they go on to improve people’s well-being.
“the human development index, it includes education as an outcome, valuable for its own sake”
The HDI also includes GDP which presumably nobody thinks is valuable for its own sake (i.e. widgets are only useful inasmuch as they make people better off when they’re used not valuable merely for existing). In my opinion education is good to have in the HDI as a proxy for all of the many instrumental benefits it provides people.
Most people here place great weight on a welfarist theory of value: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/well-being/ . If you disagree with welfarism then it would pay to set education aside for a minute and go back and discuss more fundamental issues in moral philosophy.
The last time I had this discussion about intrinsic values, I was sent to read another SEP article, this is what it said
“One of the most comprehensive lists of intrinsic goods that anyone has suggested is that given by William Frankena ….consciousness,.… truth; knowledge and true opinions of various kinds, understanding, wisdom;”
Education brings about changes in consciousness, truth, knowledge and true opinions of various kinds, understanding, wisdom.
Or simply education is knowledge, understanding, wisdom, truth etc.. Education has intrinsic value.
The HDI also includes GDP which presumably nobody thinks is valuable for its own sake
Quoting myself from earlier in the thread
“Frankly EA is far from understanding root causes of human development, if I had to drop one index from HDI I would have dropped money not education.”
I agree these are all benefits, but I class them as instrumental benefits, and imagine most others here do as well.
no matter how you class them, EA headlining money and health as a cause priority while dropping education. + spending no money on education is straight out saying a lot about the priorities of EA.
EA gives zero value to education, and that is fundamentally wrong.
I agree that EA is not working in every area, and that is cool. How about
“EA gives very little value to education, and that is fundamentally wrong.”
On what basis has EA dropped Education from the headline? Why do they think UNDP is wrong? Why is HDI wrong?
it doesn’t mean that EAs think that education isn’t important. In fact EA is very disproportionately composed of highly educated people—presumably at least some of these people value education highly
Which is why this whole conversation is strange to me, people clearly see the value of education for themselves but not for others!
Malala in her nobel prize lecture put it beautifully
“It is not time to tell the world leaders to realize how important education is — they already know it — their own children are in good schools. Now it is time to call them to take action for the rest of the
world’s children.
We ask the world leaders to unite and make education their top priority.”
Yay.. another set of my comments gets downvoted without any response.
I think what would really resolve your debate would be associating a quality of life measure to education outcomes as well as to time spent in school. See Whitehead and Ali on assigning health-related quality of life (HRQoL) value to different health outcomes.
Even so comparing health to money itself is a moral decision and depends on ones intuitions and preferences without clear answers. e.g. Give Well values doubling of income for one year = .6 years of life
I value the same doubling of income at less than .1 years
Who is right?
EA community values education (by itself) at zero, so does Give Well. I value 1 year of education = 1 year of life
Putting the two together I value
1 year of education = 6 years of income
“changes outlook towards life, makes married life less unequal for women, increases self-respect, self-confidence, allows for better participation in society”
I agree these are all benefits, but I class them as instrumental benefits, and imagine most others here do as well.
They are benefits inasmuch as they go on to improve people’s well-being.
“the human development index, it includes education as an outcome, valuable for its own sake”
The HDI also includes GDP which presumably nobody thinks is valuable for its own sake (i.e. widgets are only useful inasmuch as they make people better off when they’re used not valuable merely for existing). In my opinion education is good to have in the HDI as a proxy for all of the many instrumental benefits it provides people.
Most people here place great weight on a welfarist theory of value: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/well-being/ . If you disagree with welfarism then it would pay to set education aside for a minute and go back and discuss more fundamental issues in moral philosophy.
I will read the philosophy link, but I am not a fan of reading philosophy. Amartya Sen says that education has intrinsic value, he is a professor of philosophy (if you care for that sort of thing). In this thread I had a quote from Sen/UNDP where they say that education is a goal in itself like health. https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/mC8NMNnaTKzYsL8jk/effective-altruism-and-international-trade#kDjYFcFhsDZNrDWvW
The last time I had this discussion about intrinsic values, I was sent to read another SEP article, this is what it said
“One of the most comprehensive lists of intrinsic goods that anyone has suggested is that given by William Frankena ….consciousness,.… truth; knowledge and true opinions of various kinds, understanding, wisdom;”
Education brings about changes in consciousness, truth, knowledge and true opinions of various kinds, understanding, wisdom.
Or simply education is knowledge, understanding, wisdom, truth etc.. Education has intrinsic value.
Quoting myself from earlier in the thread “Frankly EA is far from understanding root causes of human development, if I had to drop one index from HDI I would have dropped money not education.”
Also see how Ashweetha thinks about education https://www.ted.com/talks/ashweetha_shetty_how_education_helped_me_rewrite_my_life
no matter how you class them, EA headlining money and health as a cause priority while dropping education. + spending no money on education is straight out saying a lot about the priorities of EA.
EA gives zero value to education, and that is fundamentally wrong.
.
Thanks anonymous_ea
I agree that EA is not working in every area, and that is cool. How about
“EA gives very little value to education, and that is fundamentally wrong.”
On what basis has EA dropped Education from the headline? Why do they think UNDP is wrong? Why is HDI wrong?
Which is why this whole conversation is strange to me, people clearly see the value of education for themselves but not for others!
Malala in her nobel prize lecture put it beautifully “It is not time to tell the world leaders to realize how important education is — they already know it — their own children are in good schools. Now it is time to call them to take action for the rest of the world’s children.
We ask the world leaders to unite and make education their top priority.”
Yay.. another set of my comments gets downvoted without any response.
I think what would really resolve your debate would be associating a quality of life measure to education outcomes as well as to time spent in school. See Whitehead and Ali on assigning health-related quality of life (HRQoL) value to different health outcomes.
:) brb243
I would be happy for more research
Usually people use LAYS but that has its problems.
Does Education Need a QALY and Is LAYS It?
Even so comparing health to money itself is a moral decision and depends on ones intuitions and preferences without clear answers. e.g. Give Well values doubling of income for one year = .6 years of life I value the same doubling of income at less than .1 years
Who is right?
EA community values education (by itself) at zero, so does Give Well. I value 1 year of education = 1 year of life
Putting the two together I value 1 year of education = 6 years of income
Who is right?
Thanks for the article!!
I think that everyone will be right if LAYS (the unit of quality education provided) is linked to QALYs (the unit of quality life years provided).
Please submit a request to the World Bank (which developed LAYS) and the UK Medical Research Council (which aims to improve the QALY measure).