+ 1 to the point that it doesn’t really make sense to compare FGM and male circumcision. I support bodily autonomy and lean towards believing that parents should not circumcise male infants. I’m also not claiming that there are no negative effects to male circumcision. And as Henry said, some forms of FGM are indeed quite minor (a symbolic ‘nicking’ or small cut).
Some types involve cutting out the clitoris (which is more equivalent to the whole penis than to the foreskin); other types involve sewing up the vagina. Because of its relative rarity I’m not sure it qualifies as a sensible EA cause area, but I think the horror and outcry against it seems very merited and it makes sense that more countries have outlawed it than have outlawed male circumcision (though as I say, I’d tentatively support making that illegal also and don’t want to ignore the fact that that’s also a harm).
On a meta level, I’m surprised by how unpopular Sjlver and DukeGartzea’s comments are in this discussion relative to others’. It doesn’t seem that controversial to argue that women face more violence, particularly of certain types, than men (though it’s fair to argue the other side, of course).
On a meta level, I’m surprised by how unpopular Sjlver and DukeGartzea’s comments are in this discussion relative to others’.
For me it was seeing arguments made from emotion (“It is very clear that violence against men is less of an issue than violence against women”, no evidence provided) when responding to comments that contained data on men being the majority of victims of violence. When challenged they performed a bait-and-switch by offering stats for sexual assault (which is indeed more common in women, and a deeply serious issue, but is a subset of assault generally).
Agreed that FGM is horrifying beyond belief. But the flippancy from Sjilver around male circumcision and its purported sex benefits to men (which are not backed by the evidence), accompanied by a winky face, were enough to earn a downvote from me.
I could completely agree with your argument, but I see a lack of criticism of various comments, where one of the well-known dog whistles used by those who deny the existence of particular violence against women is used.
Likewise, extract the fact that the majority of homicide victims are men, deliberately ignoring the reasons for this violence and their differences, data that I contribute not using Wikipedia pages but global studies on homicide from the United Nations. The comment where I added that data, by the way, got several negative votes originally. I find that worrying enough, and it is worse coming from a community like EA, where these basic things should be already mostly established
If we are going to criticise Sjilver answers, as you say “arguments made from emotion”, it seems -to me- more serious to criticise responses that originate in a supposed rationalization argumentation and are still biased and, the worst thing of all of this in my humble opinion, the instrumentalization of deaths that are used as a weapon against the fact that there is particular violence against women that does not exist in the other way.
I think this was a thoughtful comment and I also think that Sliver and Duke’s comments seem normal and reasonable.
Also the deeper issue here isn’t violence but the abuse, mistreatment, control, of other people. For prosaic and sad reasons, I expect women to be systemically much more vulnerable to this than men.
It’s not the physical act, it’s the fear, the powerlessness.
(Note that none of these thoughts alone suggest this is an EA cause area.)
+ 1 to the point that it doesn’t really make sense to compare FGM and male circumcision.
I support bodily autonomy and lean towards believing that parents should not circumcise male infants. I’m also not claiming that there are no negative effects to male circumcision. And as Henry said, some forms of FGM are indeed quite minor (a symbolic ‘nicking’ or small cut).
That said, other forms of FGM are...horrifying and just seem way worse than male circumcision. I’m going to drop the wikipedia article here—considered yourself content-warned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Types
Some types involve cutting out the clitoris (which is more equivalent to the whole penis than to the foreskin); other types involve sewing up the vagina. Because of its relative rarity I’m not sure it qualifies as a sensible EA cause area, but I think the horror and outcry against it seems very merited and it makes sense that more countries have outlawed it than have outlawed male circumcision (though as I say, I’d tentatively support making that illegal also and don’t want to ignore the fact that that’s also a harm).
On a meta level, I’m surprised by how unpopular Sjlver and DukeGartzea’s comments are in this discussion relative to others’. It doesn’t seem that controversial to argue that women face more violence, particularly of certain types, than men (though it’s fair to argue the other side, of course).
For me it was seeing arguments made from emotion (“It is very clear that violence against men is less of an issue than violence against women”, no evidence provided) when responding to comments that contained data on men being the majority of victims of violence. When challenged they performed a bait-and-switch by offering stats for sexual assault (which is indeed more common in women, and a deeply serious issue, but is a subset of assault generally).
Agreed that FGM is horrifying beyond belief. But the flippancy from Sjilver around male circumcision and its purported sex benefits to men (which are not backed by the evidence), accompanied by a winky face, were enough to earn a downvote from me.
I could completely agree with your argument, but I see a lack of criticism of various comments, where one of the well-known dog whistles used by those who deny the existence of particular violence against women is used.
Likewise, extract the fact that the majority of homicide victims are men, deliberately ignoring the reasons for this violence and their differences, data that I contribute not using Wikipedia pages but global studies on homicide from the United Nations. The comment where I added that data, by the way, got several negative votes originally. I find that worrying enough, and it is worse coming from a community like EA, where these basic things should be already mostly established
If we are going to criticise Sjilver answers, as you say “arguments made from emotion”, it seems -to me- more serious to criticise responses that originate in a supposed rationalization argumentation and are still biased and, the worst thing of all of this in my humble opinion, the instrumentalization of deaths that are used as a weapon against the fact that there is particular violence against women that does not exist in the other way.
I think this was a thoughtful comment and I also think that Sliver and Duke’s comments seem normal and reasonable.
Also the deeper issue here isn’t violence but the abuse, mistreatment, control, of other people. For prosaic and sad reasons, I expect women to be systemically much more vulnerable to this than men.
It’s not the physical act, it’s the fear, the powerlessness.
(Note that none of these thoughts alone suggest this is an EA cause area.)