I think it may be useful to frame your critiques in terms of causal stories—e.g., how strategy or structural condition X, fails to achieve goal Y, that organization Z has explicitly endorsed. Offering a gears-level model of what you think is happening, and why that’s bad, is probably the best way to (1) change peoples minds, if they’re wrong, and (2) allow other people to change your mind, if you’re wrong.
A few more specific things that I think are worth clarifying or pushing back on:
Welfare vs exploitation framing: You note the distinction between the pro-welfare vs anti-exploitation wings of animal advocacy, and suggest that the dominance of the pro-welfare wing has created some discontent in people with alternative value systems. I think that’s a fair comment, but I’d also suggest (as an observer who is not associated with the organizations you mentioned) that the welfare-centric approach may have good reasons for popularity in the marketplace of ideas. Personally, as a valence realist, I believe that caring about animal welfare is much more philosophically defensible than caring about animal exploitation, because I think welfare is more ‘real’ (better definable; less of a leaky reification; hews closer to what actually has value) than exploitation/justice. I certainly could be wrong and it could be there are solid reasons why I should care more about alternative framings, but I’d need to see good philosophical arguments for this.
Democratisation / accountability at ACE: I should note that I’m not affiliated with ACE whatsoever, but I have been following them as an organization. I too have some qualms about some things they’ve written, but it seems my qualms run in the opposite direction of yours. :) I.e., I think equity, inclusion, and diversity can be good things, but I also believe organizations have a limited ‘complexity budget’, and by requiring of themselves an explicit focus on these things, ACE may be watering down their core goal of helping animals. However, I would also add (1) I’m glad ACE exists, (2) my impression is they’re doing a fine job, and (3) I don’t see myself as having much standing (‘skin in the game’) to critique ACE.
This is not to say your concerns are baseless, but it is to note there are people who seem to share your goals (‘being good to animals’ is a non-trivial reason why I’m doing the work I’m doing, and I assume you feel the same), yet would pull in exactly the opposite direction you would.
Probably the most effective moral trade here is that we should just let ACE be ACE.
It could be that this isn’t the best approach, and that EAA orgs should ‘pay more attention to other perspectives’. But I think the burden of proof is on those who would make this assertion to be very clear about (1) what exactly their perspective is, (2) what exactly their perspective entails, practically and philosophically, (3) whether they have any ‘skin in the game’ in relevant ways, (4) what’s uniquely ethical or effective about these perspectives, among the countless perspectives out there, and by implication (5) why EAAs (such as ACE) should change their methods and/or goals to accommodate them.
Thank you for the feedback. Do you have a few examples of the gears-level model being used so that I could look at how that works? Is it something like this perhaps? If that’s the case I could make the article fit a broader critique of Effective Altruism based on previously acknowledged areas, which may be more useful for people, rather than it perhaps appearing more like a standalone piece.
In terms of the other two points you make, I’m more familiar with that perspective. So I agree that welfare would have more popularity in the marketplace of ideas, this is because it fits with carnism and cultural speciesism. So conventional welfare is constructed on the idea of consuming animals and therefore it is easier to relate. However, this is fairly dependent on our interpretation of welfare. There is a difference here between ‘welfare that deceives’ and ‘authentic welfare’ (Lee Hall) so there is the industry interpretation of welfare advocacy, and there is welfare as consideration of the situation of other animals. So, one study suggested that drawing attention to the experience / well being (or lack thereof) within a farming system can lead to a reduction in meat consumption. However, contrary to this there is the ‘humane myth’ which works to reassure people that consuming animals is a good thing, and this is underpinned by such things as the Five Freedoms (Melanie Joy discussed this as compassionate carnism ). So the mainstream groups, particularly those such as Mercy for Animals are both campaigning for a reduction in animal consumption and reifying meat consumption at the same time. Even within the broader animal movement concerned with harm reduction there would be some contention around this, but where the ideas are separated there is likely to be less contention over where they have been amalgamated. I recently read this paper about the Five Freedoms which I thought made some useful points.
In terms of the complexity budget, I tend to view this as being used as a way to avoid doing complexity well. I’m not that interested in taking the focus off of other animals, however, there is a parallel here in terms of what groups such as Non-Humans First prescribe, essentially where little else matters except other animals because their situation is presently so dire. However, in terms of movement building this is not a good idea because it inevitably means the door is wide open to ‘everyone’ to join the movement, and it is no surprise they have an association with the far right. In this way I wonder how it is the ‘mainstream’ movement differentiates from that position in a meaningful way? It is not unusual to find thought leaders in the mainstream movement say they want everyone to adopt a plant based diet, and whilst it is the case that I do too, it is also the case that I don’t want the far right to be associated with the movement because inclusion can lead to exclusion. This is because unless people see themselves represented they will likely be less interested in becoming involved, whilst why would anyone want to walk into a situation where they find people discriminating against them? On a broader level, I think the larger groups need to bear some responsibility for failing to reflect the broader population we are trying to appeal to. I also think this is the problem at a very basic level, and it is one that EAA hasn’t really grasped.
In terms of ACE, i think it is more likely the case they are doing more than any other group, because there aren’t any other groups in that space. It remains that few charities are evaluated, and that claims around finding the most effective charities in the animal movement are weak. It’s true some analysis takes place, but their criteria is limited in such a way that the larger groups are most likely going to be the top charities. It could also be the case they are the best charities, but it is also the case they often conflict with EA value systems, and this conflict isn’t addressed in a meaningful way, and therefore ACE creates issues it chooses not to account for.
Overall, I think it is somewhat difficult to be critical, when ACE and other EAAs are not particularly clear about what those issues might be. The responsibility is on ACE as an organisation to consider a variety of issues thoroughly, and engaging in critical self awareness seems to be low, with the burden of proof disproportionately placed on people who are peripherally involved in Effective Altruism. Sometimes it is said that transparency and openness are key to promoting changes, but if EAs aren’t conversant in the various issues that are generated by EAA then it becomes difficult to make a case for reform because of the high burden of proof / need to educate on issues that aren’t known about (and a disinclination among EAA generally to take an interest in them). We could perhaps argue in favour of expanding ACE to increase scope, but without consideration for foundational issues ACE would in my view likely just do more of a sub-optimal thing, rather than engage in any particularly critical and progressive work.
Hi Kevin,
I think it may be useful to frame your critiques in terms of causal stories—e.g., how strategy or structural condition X, fails to achieve goal Y, that organization Z has explicitly endorsed. Offering a gears-level model of what you think is happening, and why that’s bad, is probably the best way to (1) change peoples minds, if they’re wrong, and (2) allow other people to change your mind, if you’re wrong.
A few more specific things that I think are worth clarifying or pushing back on:
Welfare vs exploitation framing: You note the distinction between the pro-welfare vs anti-exploitation wings of animal advocacy, and suggest that the dominance of the pro-welfare wing has created some discontent in people with alternative value systems. I think that’s a fair comment, but I’d also suggest (as an observer who is not associated with the organizations you mentioned) that the welfare-centric approach may have good reasons for popularity in the marketplace of ideas. Personally, as a valence realist, I believe that caring about animal welfare is much more philosophically defensible than caring about animal exploitation, because I think welfare is more ‘real’ (better definable; less of a leaky reification; hews closer to what actually has value) than exploitation/justice. I certainly could be wrong and it could be there are solid reasons why I should care more about alternative framings, but I’d need to see good philosophical arguments for this.
Democratisation / accountability at ACE: I should note that I’m not affiliated with ACE whatsoever, but I have been following them as an organization. I too have some qualms about some things they’ve written, but it seems my qualms run in the opposite direction of yours. :) I.e., I think equity, inclusion, and diversity can be good things, but I also believe organizations have a limited ‘complexity budget’, and by requiring of themselves an explicit focus on these things, ACE may be watering down their core goal of helping animals. However, I would also add (1) I’m glad ACE exists, (2) my impression is they’re doing a fine job, and (3) I don’t see myself as having much standing (‘skin in the game’) to critique ACE.
This is not to say your concerns are baseless, but it is to note there are people who seem to share your goals (‘being good to animals’ is a non-trivial reason why I’m doing the work I’m doing, and I assume you feel the same), yet would pull in exactly the opposite direction you would.
Probably the most effective moral trade here is that we should just let ACE be ACE.
It could be that this isn’t the best approach, and that EAA orgs should ‘pay more attention to other perspectives’. But I think the burden of proof is on those who would make this assertion to be very clear about (1) what exactly their perspective is, (2) what exactly their perspective entails, practically and philosophically, (3) whether they have any ‘skin in the game’ in relevant ways, (4) what’s uniquely ethical or effective about these perspectives, among the countless perspectives out there, and by implication (5) why EAAs (such as ACE) should change their methods and/or goals to accommodate them.
Thank you for the feedback. Do you have a few examples of the gears-level model being used so that I could look at how that works? Is it something like this perhaps? If that’s the case I could make the article fit a broader critique of Effective Altruism based on previously acknowledged areas, which may be more useful for people, rather than it perhaps appearing more like a standalone piece.
In terms of the other two points you make, I’m more familiar with that perspective. So I agree that welfare would have more popularity in the marketplace of ideas, this is because it fits with carnism and cultural speciesism. So conventional welfare is constructed on the idea of consuming animals and therefore it is easier to relate. However, this is fairly dependent on our interpretation of welfare. There is a difference here between ‘welfare that deceives’ and ‘authentic welfare’ (Lee Hall) so there is the industry interpretation of welfare advocacy, and there is welfare as consideration of the situation of other animals. So, one study suggested that drawing attention to the experience / well being (or lack thereof) within a farming system can lead to a reduction in meat consumption. However, contrary to this there is the ‘humane myth’ which works to reassure people that consuming animals is a good thing, and this is underpinned by such things as the Five Freedoms (Melanie Joy discussed this as compassionate carnism ). So the mainstream groups, particularly those such as Mercy for Animals are both campaigning for a reduction in animal consumption and reifying meat consumption at the same time. Even within the broader animal movement concerned with harm reduction there would be some contention around this, but where the ideas are separated there is likely to be less contention over where they have been amalgamated. I recently read this paper about the Five Freedoms which I thought made some useful points.
In terms of the complexity budget, I tend to view this as being used as a way to avoid doing complexity well. I’m not that interested in taking the focus off of other animals, however, there is a parallel here in terms of what groups such as Non-Humans First prescribe, essentially where little else matters except other animals because their situation is presently so dire. However, in terms of movement building this is not a good idea because it inevitably means the door is wide open to ‘everyone’ to join the movement, and it is no surprise they have an association with the far right. In this way I wonder how it is the ‘mainstream’ movement differentiates from that position in a meaningful way? It is not unusual to find thought leaders in the mainstream movement say they want everyone to adopt a plant based diet, and whilst it is the case that I do too, it is also the case that I don’t want the far right to be associated with the movement because inclusion can lead to exclusion. This is because unless people see themselves represented they will likely be less interested in becoming involved, whilst why would anyone want to walk into a situation where they find people discriminating against them? On a broader level, I think the larger groups need to bear some responsibility for failing to reflect the broader population we are trying to appeal to. I also think this is the problem at a very basic level, and it is one that EAA hasn’t really grasped.
In terms of ACE, i think it is more likely the case they are doing more than any other group, because there aren’t any other groups in that space. It remains that few charities are evaluated, and that claims around finding the most effective charities in the animal movement are weak. It’s true some analysis takes place, but their criteria is limited in such a way that the larger groups are most likely going to be the top charities. It could also be the case they are the best charities, but it is also the case they often conflict with EA value systems, and this conflict isn’t addressed in a meaningful way, and therefore ACE creates issues it chooses not to account for.
Overall, I think it is somewhat difficult to be critical, when ACE and other EAAs are not particularly clear about what those issues might be. The responsibility is on ACE as an organisation to consider a variety of issues thoroughly, and engaging in critical self awareness seems to be low, with the burden of proof disproportionately placed on people who are peripherally involved in Effective Altruism. Sometimes it is said that transparency and openness are key to promoting changes, but if EAs aren’t conversant in the various issues that are generated by EAA then it becomes difficult to make a case for reform because of the high burden of proof / need to educate on issues that aren’t known about (and a disinclination among EAA generally to take an interest in them). We could perhaps argue in favour of expanding ACE to increase scope, but without consideration for foundational issues ACE would in my view likely just do more of a sub-optimal thing, rather than engage in any particularly critical and progressive work.