BDSM is not primarily about sex, and sex mostly does not happen at BDSM parties, at least not the ones that I’ve been at. A sex party is a different thing. The impression I get from your comment is that you are not very familiar with the BDSM scene—though I might be wrong. There isn’t any tell in it that shows that you definitely are ignorant about a basic fact, it is just a vibe I’m feeling.
In either case, as far as I know, neither of us work at an EA org, and from your comment it seems like you imagine that what happens at these parties is very different from what I imagine happens at them (which is not to say I’m correct, they probably occur in the Bay Area or London, where the scene is very different, and vastly bigger than where I live).
Also, I think we have a different set of priors here about sex, relationships and careers.
And again, I am self employed, and have been for the entire time I’ve earned meaningful money, and I’m male, so my intuitive pov is likely missing important things. And also, my resistance to changing norms in EA around sex is not about thinking that there shouldn’t be a norm where managers don’t sleep with subordinates in EA orgs -- there probably should be a norm against that, though I think even here the other side of the cost benefit ledger is systematically ignored because it sounds bad to talk about benefits of something that has been decided to be socially condemned.
My view here is mostly about creating norms against people who are not in employment relationships with each other dating within the community, and my anger is about trying to define community boundaries to make openly poly, bdsm, or generally weird people feel less welcome and allowed to be who they are.
Tim—excellent comment. I agree that a lot of the EA people who seem to be freaking out about the very idea of being invited to BSDM events seem to know less than nothing about BDSM, and are relying on third-hand media stereotypes about the subculture.
A good rule of thumb about highly stigmatized sexual subcultures is, if one hasn’t read anything about them, hasn’t watched any inteviews with people in the subculture, hasn’t gone to any events in the subculture, and doesn’t have any close friends involved in the subculture, then one’s takes about the subculture are likely to have very low epistemic quality.
a lot of the EA people who seem to be freaking out about the very idea of being invited to BSDM events seem to know less than nothing about BDSM, and are relying on third-hand media stereotypes about the subculture
On the other hand we’re talking about situations where someone is inviting their coworkers to BDSM parties. While (as I said above) I think this can be ok if the asker already knows the askee is into this kind of thing, consider the more dubious cases where the asker doesn’t:
A: I’m putting together a BDSM party this weekend, let me know if that’s the sort of thing you might be into.
B: Um, no thanks.
How B feels here depends mostly on their likely-uninformed understanding of what happens at these parties.
I guess the key issue is, who’s responsible for having misunderstandings and stereotypes about a popular sexual subculture, if those misunderstandings and stereotypes lead to negative reactions or to offense being taken.
I don’t think it’s necessarily about having misunderstandings or stereotypes. I was the original person who commented this. I think people have different levels of comfort when it comes to mixing their sex and work lives. I personally have strong boundaries in professional settings. Ultimately I think everyone has different preferences here, and I get the sense that EA groups maybe have a slightly different culture than what I’m used to when it comes to personal/professional boundaries. Should that be changed? I’m not so sure, I was mostly posting it as a question, and to show my own perspective.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I am indeed not aware of how BDSM culture operates and definitely made a lot of assumptions. My apologies for that!
I guess I agree we should welcome people, and my general sense is that optimal sexual/relationship norms should be far more open and less prudish than they are today. As I’ve said elsewhere though, when work and large decisions regarding money/power get involved l become wary of sexual relationships.
BDSM is not primarily about sex, and sex mostly does not happen at BDSM parties, at least not the ones that I’ve been at. A sex party is a different thing. The impression I get from your comment is that you are not very familiar with the BDSM scene—though I might be wrong. There isn’t any tell in it that shows that you definitely are ignorant about a basic fact, it is just a vibe I’m feeling.
In either case, as far as I know, neither of us work at an EA org, and from your comment it seems like you imagine that what happens at these parties is very different from what I imagine happens at them (which is not to say I’m correct, they probably occur in the Bay Area or London, where the scene is very different, and vastly bigger than where I live).
Also, I think we have a different set of priors here about sex, relationships and careers.
And again, I am self employed, and have been for the entire time I’ve earned meaningful money, and I’m male, so my intuitive pov is likely missing important things. And also, my resistance to changing norms in EA around sex is not about thinking that there shouldn’t be a norm where managers don’t sleep with subordinates in EA orgs -- there probably should be a norm against that, though I think even here the other side of the cost benefit ledger is systematically ignored because it sounds bad to talk about benefits of something that has been decided to be socially condemned.
My view here is mostly about creating norms against people who are not in employment relationships with each other dating within the community, and my anger is about trying to define community boundaries to make openly poly, bdsm, or generally weird people feel less welcome and allowed to be who they are.
Tim—excellent comment. I agree that a lot of the EA people who seem to be freaking out about the very idea of being invited to BSDM events seem to know less than nothing about BDSM, and are relying on third-hand media stereotypes about the subculture.
A good rule of thumb about highly stigmatized sexual subcultures is, if one hasn’t read anything about them, hasn’t watched any inteviews with people in the subculture, hasn’t gone to any events in the subculture, and doesn’t have any close friends involved in the subculture, then one’s takes about the subculture are likely to have very low epistemic quality.
On the other hand we’re talking about situations where someone is inviting their coworkers to BDSM parties. While (as I said above) I think this can be ok if the asker already knows the askee is into this kind of thing, consider the more dubious cases where the asker doesn’t:
A: I’m putting together a BDSM party this weekend, let me know if that’s the sort of thing you might be into.
B: Um, no thanks.
How B feels here depends mostly on their likely-uninformed understanding of what happens at these parties.
Jeff—fair point.
I guess the key issue is, who’s responsible for having misunderstandings and stereotypes about a popular sexual subculture, if those misunderstandings and stereotypes lead to negative reactions or to offense being taken.
I don’t think it’s necessarily about having misunderstandings or stereotypes. I was the original person who commented this. I think people have different levels of comfort when it comes to mixing their sex and work lives. I personally have strong boundaries in professional settings. Ultimately I think everyone has different preferences here, and I get the sense that EA groups maybe have a slightly different culture than what I’m used to when it comes to personal/professional boundaries. Should that be changed? I’m not so sure, I was mostly posting it as a question, and to show my own perspective.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I am indeed not aware of how BDSM culture operates and definitely made a lot of assumptions. My apologies for that!
I guess I agree we should welcome people, and my general sense is that optimal sexual/relationship norms should be far more open and less prudish than they are today. As I’ve said elsewhere though, when work and large decisions regarding money/power get involved l become wary of sexual relationships.