Thanks for providing such a detailed comment as a response to what I must admit was one of my lazier comments.
I should make my critique more nuanced. I don’t believe that all feminists or even the majority of feminists are involved in or necessarily support the kind of witch-hunts or social shaming that I see occurring on a regular basis. My claim is simply a) these witchhunts occur b) they occur regularly c) feminism does not appear (from my admittedly limited external perspective) to have made much progress dealing with this issue. That said, I will definitely read the “calling in” vs. “calling out” article.
I have to agree with AGB that most feminists seem relatively unconcerned with these issues. They may point out that this is not all feminists or even most feminists and that it is unfair to hold them responsible for the actions of other actors; both of which are true. Nonetheless, they generally fail to acknowledge that this is a systematic issue within feminism or that feminism tends to have these occur more often or with more viciousness than in many other movements. Furthermore, if this kinds of incidents occurred within EA at even a fraction of the rate that they seem to occur within feminism, then I would be incredibly concerned. This holds even if the amount of drama within feminism is “normal”—a “normal” amount of drama would still not be good for the movement.
After all, they reason, some incidents will always occur in any movement once it reaches a certain size. I, and many only observers, think that, on the contrary this is a problem that is especially bad for feminism and is a directly result of several ideas existing within the movement without any corresponding counter-balancing ideas. Nonetheless, I cannot provide any proof of this, because this is not the kind of statement that can easily be verified.
Let’s take for example the idea that external optics is the fault of the patriarchy. It is undoubtedly true that much of the criticism of feminism, especially from the right, is extremely unfair and motivated because feminism is challenging certain “patriarchial” ideas, such as traditional ideas of the family and gender. On the other hand, this can be used as a fully general purpose response to all criticism and it makes it very easy for people to dismiss criticism. On the other hand, within EA, there is a social norm that it is acceptable to Devil’s Advocate any criticism, without anyone doubting that you are on their side.
Another idea is the concept of “mansplaining”. I’m sure that many men do come into conversations with an extremely limited view or understanding. But again, this serves as a fully general purpose counter-argument and it would be against EA social norms to use an ad hominem to dismiss someone’s argument just for being somewhat naive.
So even though many EAs may believe that the current criticism is largely poor quality and motivated by entrenched interests or “emotional” arguments and even though many EAs may fail to intellectually respect their opponents (as per your critiques), the current social norms act to limit the damage by ensuring a minimum standard of decency.
Regarding economics, you are probably right that many EAs with think that they know more economics than they actually do. I make this mistake sometimes. This is definitely a problem—but at least it is a better situation compared to most other social movements. I continually hear critiques of capitalism from people with no economics knowledge whatsoever (some people with economics knowledge also critique capitalism, but these are drowned out out by the mass of people without such knowledge). EA seems to have a high enough proportion of economics majors or otherwise quantitative people, that a large proportion will have enough economics exposure to produce at least a shallow understanding of economics. This has its disadvantages, but I still consider it superior to them having no knowledge.
I’m not convinced that the “Ally” formula is an example of successful mitigation. I imagine that some people have certainly been bad allies in the past, which has motivated these issues, but I am also worried that it will harm the intellectual diversity of the feminism movement by limiting the ability of allies to defend views that don’t match that of the movement as a whole.
Thanks for providing such a detailed comment as a response to what I must admit was one of my lazier comments.
I should make my critique more nuanced. I don’t believe that all feminists or even the majority of feminists are involved in or necessarily support the kind of witch-hunts or social shaming that I see occurring on a regular basis. My claim is simply a) these witchhunts occur b) they occur regularly c) feminism does not appear (from my admittedly limited external perspective) to have made much progress dealing with this issue. That said, I will definitely read the “calling in” vs. “calling out” article.
I have to agree with AGB that most feminists seem relatively unconcerned with these issues. They may point out that this is not all feminists or even most feminists and that it is unfair to hold them responsible for the actions of other actors; both of which are true. Nonetheless, they generally fail to acknowledge that this is a systematic issue within feminism or that feminism tends to have these occur more often or with more viciousness than in many other movements. Furthermore, if this kinds of incidents occurred within EA at even a fraction of the rate that they seem to occur within feminism, then I would be incredibly concerned. This holds even if the amount of drama within feminism is “normal”—a “normal” amount of drama would still not be good for the movement.
After all, they reason, some incidents will always occur in any movement once it reaches a certain size. I, and many only observers, think that, on the contrary this is a problem that is especially bad for feminism and is a directly result of several ideas existing within the movement without any corresponding counter-balancing ideas. Nonetheless, I cannot provide any proof of this, because this is not the kind of statement that can easily be verified.
Let’s take for example the idea that external optics is the fault of the patriarchy. It is undoubtedly true that much of the criticism of feminism, especially from the right, is extremely unfair and motivated because feminism is challenging certain “patriarchial” ideas, such as traditional ideas of the family and gender. On the other hand, this can be used as a fully general purpose response to all criticism and it makes it very easy for people to dismiss criticism. On the other hand, within EA, there is a social norm that it is acceptable to Devil’s Advocate any criticism, without anyone doubting that you are on their side.
Another idea is the concept of “mansplaining”. I’m sure that many men do come into conversations with an extremely limited view or understanding. But again, this serves as a fully general purpose counter-argument and it would be against EA social norms to use an ad hominem to dismiss someone’s argument just for being somewhat naive.
So even though many EAs may believe that the current criticism is largely poor quality and motivated by entrenched interests or “emotional” arguments and even though many EAs may fail to intellectually respect their opponents (as per your critiques), the current social norms act to limit the damage by ensuring a minimum standard of decency.
Regarding economics, you are probably right that many EAs with think that they know more economics than they actually do. I make this mistake sometimes. This is definitely a problem—but at least it is a better situation compared to most other social movements. I continually hear critiques of capitalism from people with no economics knowledge whatsoever (some people with economics knowledge also critique capitalism, but these are drowned out out by the mass of people without such knowledge). EA seems to have a high enough proportion of economics majors or otherwise quantitative people, that a large proportion will have enough economics exposure to produce at least a shallow understanding of economics. This has its disadvantages, but I still consider it superior to them having no knowledge.
I’m not convinced that the “Ally” formula is an example of successful mitigation. I imagine that some people have certainly been bad allies in the past, which has motivated these issues, but I am also worried that it will harm the intellectual diversity of the feminism movement by limiting the ability of allies to defend views that don’t match that of the movement as a whole.