That is a good point. I was actually considering that when I was making my statement. I suspect self-delusion might be the core of the belief of many individuals who think their their lives are net positive. In order to adapt/avoid great emotional pain, humans might self-delude when faced with the question of whether their life is overall positive.
Even if it is not possible for human lives to be net positive, my first counterargument would still hold for two different reason.
First, we’d still be able to improve the lives of other species.
Second, it would still be valuable to prevent much more negative lives that might happen if other kinds of humans were allowed to evolve in our absence. It might be difficult to ensure our extinction was permanent. If we took care to make ourselves extinct and that we somehow wouldn’t come back, it’s possible that within, say, a billion years the universe would change in such a way as to make the spark of life that would lead to humans happen again. Cosmological and extremely long processes might undo any precautions we took.
Alternatively, maybe different kinds of humans that would evolve in our absence would be more capable of having positive lives than we are.
I don’t think I am familiar with anything by Thomas Ligotti. I’ll look into them.
Note, however, that (a) Ligotti isn’t a philosopher himself, he just compiled some pessimistic outlooks, representing them the way he understood them, (b) his book is very dark and can be too depressing even for another pessimist. I mean, proceed with caution, take care of your mental well-being while getting acquainted with his writings, he’s a reasonably competent pessimist but a renowned master of, for the lack of a better word, horror-like texts :)
Thank you for that reminder. As with many things in philosophy, this discussion can wander into some pretty dark territory, and it’s important to take care of our mental health.
I read this post about Thomas Ligotti on LessWrong. So far, it wasn’t that disconcerting for me. I think that because I read a lot of Stephen King novels and some other horror stories when I was a teenager, I would be able to read more of his thoughts without being disconcerted.
If I ever find it worthwhile to look more into pessimistic views on existence, I will remember his name.
One possible “fun” implication of following this line of thought to its extreme conclusion would be that we should strive to stay alive and improve science to the point at which we are able to fully destroy the universe (maybe by purposefully paperclipping, or instigating vacuum decay?). Idk what to do with this thought, just think it’s interesting.
That’s an interesting way of looking at it. That view seems nihilistic and like it could lead to hedonism since if our only purpose is to make sure we completely destroy ourselves and the universe, nothing really matters.
I don’t think that would imply that nothing really matters, since reducing suffering and maximizing happiness (as well as good ol’ “care about other human beings while they live”) could still be valid sources of meaning. In fact, insuring that we do not become extinct too early would be extremely important to insure the best possible fate of the universe (that being a quick and painless destruction or whatever), so just doing what feels best at the moment probably would not be a great strategy for a True Believer in this hypothetical.
That is a good point. I was actually considering that when I was making my statement. I suspect self-delusion might be the core of the belief of many individuals who think their their lives are net positive. In order to adapt/avoid great emotional pain, humans might self-delude when faced with the question of whether their life is overall positive.
Even if it is not possible for human lives to be net positive, my first counterargument would still hold for two different reason.
First, we’d still be able to improve the lives of other species.
Second, it would still be valuable to prevent much more negative lives that might happen if other kinds of humans were allowed to evolve in our absence. It might be difficult to ensure our extinction was permanent. If we took care to make ourselves extinct and that we somehow wouldn’t come back, it’s possible that within, say, a billion years the universe would change in such a way as to make the spark of life that would lead to humans happen again. Cosmological and extremely long processes might undo any precautions we took.
Alternatively, maybe different kinds of humans that would evolve in our absence would be more capable of having positive lives than we are.
I don’t think I am familiar with anything by Thomas Ligotti. I’ll look into them.
Note, however, that (a) Ligotti isn’t a philosopher himself, he just compiled some pessimistic outlooks, representing them the way he understood them, (b) his book is very dark and can be too depressing even for another pessimist. I mean, proceed with caution, take care of your mental well-being while getting acquainted with his writings, he’s a reasonably competent pessimist but a renowned master of, for the lack of a better word, horror-like texts :)
Thank you for that reminder. As with many things in philosophy, this discussion can wander into some pretty dark territory, and it’s important to take care of our mental health.
I read this post about Thomas Ligotti on LessWrong. So far, it wasn’t that disconcerting for me. I think that because I read a lot of Stephen King novels and some other horror stories when I was a teenager, I would be able to read more of his thoughts without being disconcerted.
If I ever find it worthwhile to look more into pessimistic views on existence, I will remember his name.
One possible “fun” implication of following this line of thought to its extreme conclusion would be that we should strive to stay alive and improve science to the point at which we are able to fully destroy the universe (maybe by purposefully paperclipping, or instigating vacuum decay?). Idk what to do with this thought, just think it’s interesting.
Side note: I love that “paperclipping” is a verb now.
That’s an interesting way of looking at it. That view seems nihilistic and like it could lead to hedonism since if our only purpose is to make sure we completely destroy ourselves and the universe, nothing really matters.
I don’t think that would imply that nothing really matters, since reducing suffering and maximizing happiness (as well as good ol’ “care about other human beings while they live”) could still be valid sources of meaning. In fact, insuring that we do not become extinct too early would be extremely important to insure the best possible fate of the universe (that being a quick and painless destruction or whatever), so just doing what feels best at the moment probably would not be a great strategy for a True Believer in this hypothetical.