Oh no, this is not just a matter of opinion. There are numerous articles written in the field of philosophy of science aimed precisely to determine which criteria help us to evaluate promising scientific research. So there is actually quite some scholarly work on this (and it is a topic of my research, as a matter of fact).
So yes, I’d argue that the situation is disturbing since immense amount of money is going into research for which there is no good reason to suppose that it is effective or efficient.
Part of being in an intellectual community is being able to accept that you will think that other people are very wrong about things. It’s not a matter of opinion, but it is a matter of debate.
There are numerous articles written in the field of philosophy of science aimed precisely to determine which criteria help us to evaluate promising scientific research
Oh, there have been numerous articles, in your field, claimed by you. That’s all well and good, but it should be clear why people will have reasons for doubts on the topic.
Part of being in an intellectual community is being able to accept that you will think that other people are very wrong about things. It’s not a matter of opinion, but it is a matter of debate.
Sure! Which is why I’ve been exchanging arguments with you.
Oh, there have been numerous articles, in your field, claimed by you.
Now what on earth is that supposed to mean?
What are you trying to say with this? You want references, is that it? I have no idea what this claim is supposed to stand for :-/
That’s all well and good, but it should be clear why people will have reasons for doubts on the topic.
Sure, and so far you haven’t given me a single good reason. The only thing you’ve done is reiterate the lack of transparency on the side of OpenPhil.
Sure! Which is why I’ve been exchanging arguments with you.
And, therefore, you would be wise to treat Open Phil in the same manner, i.e. something to disagree with, not something to attack as not being Good Enough for EA.
Now what on earth is that supposed to mean? What are you trying to say with this? You want references, is that it? I have no idea what this claim is supposed to stand for :-/
It means that you haven’t argued your point with the sufficient rigor and comprehensiveness that is required for you to convince every reasonable person. (no, stating “experts in my field agree with me” does not count here, even though it’s a big part of it)
Sure, and so far you haven’t given me a single good reason.
Other people have discussed and linked Open Phil’s philosophy, I see no point in rehashing it.
I don’t have the time to join the debate, but I’m pretty sure Dunja’s point isn’t “I know that OpenPhil’s strategy is bad” but “Why does everyone around here act as though it is knowable that their strategy is good, given their lack of transparency?” It seems like people act OpenPhil’s strategy is good and aren’t massively confused / explicitly clear that they don’t have the info that is required to assess the strategy.
Dunja, is that accurate?
(Small note: I’d been meaning to try to read the two papers you linked me to above a couple months ago about continental drift and whatnot, but I couldn’t get non-paywalled versions. If you have them, or could send them to me at gmail.com preceeded by ‘benitopace’, I’d appreciate that.)
It’s really about the transparency of the criteria, and that’s all I’m arguing for. I am also open for changing my views on the standard criteria etc. - I just care we start the discussion with some rigor concerning how best to assess effective research.
As for my papers—crap, that’s embarrassing that I’ve linked paywall versions, I have them on academia page too, but guess those can be accessed also only within that website… have to think of some proper free solution here. But in any case: please don’t feel obliged to read my papers, there’s for sure lots of other more interesting stuff out there! If you are interested in the topic it’s enough the scan to check the criteria I use in these assessments :) I’ll email them in any case.
Yeah that’s a worthy point, but people are not really making decisions on this basis. It’s not like Givewell, which recommends where other people should give. Open Phil has always ultimately been Holden doing what he wants and not caring about what other people think. It’s like those “where I donated this year” blogs from the Givewell staff. Yeah, people might well be giving too much credence to their views, but that’s a rather secondary thing to worry about.
Oh no, this is not just a matter of opinion. There are numerous articles written in the field of philosophy of science aimed precisely to determine which criteria help us to evaluate promising scientific research. So there is actually quite some scholarly work on this (and it is a topic of my research, as a matter of fact).
So yes, I’d argue that the situation is disturbing since immense amount of money is going into research for which there is no good reason to suppose that it is effective or efficient.
Part of being in an intellectual community is being able to accept that you will think that other people are very wrong about things. It’s not a matter of opinion, but it is a matter of debate.
Oh, there have been numerous articles, in your field, claimed by you. That’s all well and good, but it should be clear why people will have reasons for doubts on the topic.
Sure! Which is why I’ve been exchanging arguments with you.
Now what on earth is that supposed to mean? What are you trying to say with this? You want references, is that it? I have no idea what this claim is supposed to stand for :-/
Sure, and so far you haven’t given me a single good reason. The only thing you’ve done is reiterate the lack of transparency on the side of OpenPhil.
And, therefore, you would be wise to treat Open Phil in the same manner, i.e. something to disagree with, not something to attack as not being Good Enough for EA.
It means that you haven’t argued your point with the sufficient rigor and comprehensiveness that is required for you to convince every reasonable person. (no, stating “experts in my field agree with me” does not count here, even though it’s a big part of it)
Other people have discussed and linked Open Phil’s philosophy, I see no point in rehashing it.
I don’t have the time to join the debate, but I’m pretty sure Dunja’s point isn’t “I know that OpenPhil’s strategy is bad” but “Why does everyone around here act as though it is knowable that their strategy is good, given their lack of transparency?” It seems like people act OpenPhil’s strategy is good and aren’t massively confused / explicitly clear that they don’t have the info that is required to assess the strategy.
Dunja, is that accurate?
(Small note: I’d been meaning to try to read the two papers you linked me to above a couple months ago about continental drift and whatnot, but I couldn’t get non-paywalled versions. If you have them, or could send them to me at gmail.com preceeded by ‘benitopace’, I’d appreciate that.)
Thanks, Benito, that sums it up nicely!
It’s really about the transparency of the criteria, and that’s all I’m arguing for. I am also open for changing my views on the standard criteria etc. - I just care we start the discussion with some rigor concerning how best to assess effective research.
As for my papers—crap, that’s embarrassing that I’ve linked paywall versions, I have them on academia page too, but guess those can be accessed also only within that website… have to think of some proper free solution here. But in any case: please don’t feel obliged to read my papers, there’s for sure lots of other more interesting stuff out there! If you are interested in the topic it’s enough the scan to check the criteria I use in these assessments :) I’ll email them in any case.
Yeah that’s a worthy point, but people are not really making decisions on this basis. It’s not like Givewell, which recommends where other people should give. Open Phil has always ultimately been Holden doing what he wants and not caring about what other people think. It’s like those “where I donated this year” blogs from the Givewell staff. Yeah, people might well be giving too much credence to their views, but that’s a rather secondary thing to worry about.