In real life, I’ve selected to be around very compassionate people in EA and outside EA.
On the Forum… more men who “translate” experiences into ones that other men understand and don’t feel threatened by might help. I’ve noticed Will Bradshaw does this sometimes. Ozzie too. AGB sometimes.
Kirsten, Ivy, and Julia Wise do it often too.
I know that for a lot of women, it’s really frustrating to be treated so skeptically when we raise personal experiences or views that vary from men’s experiences.
When I’m 1:1 with my hyper-rational or autistic male friends in person, we figure out how to understand each other compassionately, so I know these individuals don’t usually mean to be as callous as they sound online.
When I’m with my EA women friends, we talk about our personal experience and the broader social issues with tons of nuance and we appreciate that no one is shamed for not sounding Tribe-y enough (for any given tribe).
But on the Forum, it’s just so often super annoying to engage. I try to simply talk about my actual life sometimes, but I know I’m going to ping someone’s “woke” alarm and end up in a stupid thread of comments.
So I consider the Forum fine for a certain kind of information exchange but mostly a lost cause for mutual understanding of anything that hits interpersonal emotional chords. I only comment here about that sort of thing when I have a lot of downtime and extra emotional bandwidth.
Kind of both here. Do you think that general activities towards building compassion are also helping here if this seems to be the thing you value in people towards making it a more comfortable environment for you? Like I’m wondering if this might be an unintended effect of general compassion building for animal welfare, and if interventions there might have some overlap in those best meant for this.
Sorry for my unfamiliarity, but could you explain what you mean by “translate experiences”? I feel as if I’ve probably interacted with what you’re talking about, but am not sure what exactly that is mapping onto.
I also hear you and am sorry that that has been your experience of the forum. But I really think it might be worth reconsidering that stance, because I think there’s a real chance it has changed in a significant way here, so maybe try it out again and see how it goes, in some small way that wouldn’t be too inconvenient for you if it hasn’t improved? I motivate it only because I think having as many perspectives on here as possible is a great thing, and that generally the emotional things we really care about are some of the best things to interact over.
Also don’t feel the need to respond to questions (even like the ones I’m asking) if it helps increase bandwidth for other things that don’t drain you similarly.
You asked about translation. I feel tired trying to explain this and I know that’s not your fault! But it’s why I just don’t think the Forum works well for this topic.
My guess is that talking about “women’s issues” on the Forum feels as similarly taxing to me as it does for most AI safety researchers to respond to people whose reaction to AGI concerns is, “ugh, tech bros are at it again” or even a well-intentioned, “I bet being in Silicon Valley skews your perspective on this. How many non-SV people have the kinds of concerns you mention?”
Most of us are tired of that naïve convo, esp with someone who thinks they have an informed take. Where do you even start?
Someone they trust has to say, “I’m like you and I’m concerned about this; it’s not just tech bro hype, and here’s why.” They have to translate across the inferential distance, ignorance, trust gap, and knowledge gap. They need to have the patience, time, and investment in bridging the gap.
What specific sort of things would you like to see that would make you feel like you were in a more compassionate environment?
On the Forum? Or IRL?
In real life, I’ve selected to be around very compassionate people in EA and outside EA.
On the Forum… more men who “translate” experiences into ones that other men understand and don’t feel threatened by might help. I’ve noticed Will Bradshaw does this sometimes. Ozzie too. AGB sometimes.
Kirsten, Ivy, and Julia Wise do it often too. I know that for a lot of women, it’s really frustrating to be treated so skeptically when we raise personal experiences or views that vary from men’s experiences.
When I’m 1:1 with my hyper-rational or autistic male friends in person, we figure out how to understand each other compassionately, so I know these individuals don’t usually mean to be as callous as they sound online.
When I’m with my EA women friends, we talk about our personal experience and the broader social issues with tons of nuance and we appreciate that no one is shamed for not sounding Tribe-y enough (for any given tribe).
But on the Forum, it’s just so often super annoying to engage. I try to simply talk about my actual life sometimes, but I know I’m going to ping someone’s “woke” alarm and end up in a stupid thread of comments.
So I consider the Forum fine for a certain kind of information exchange but mostly a lost cause for mutual understanding of anything that hits interpersonal emotional chords. I only comment here about that sort of thing when I have a lot of downtime and extra emotional bandwidth.
Kind of both here. Do you think that general activities towards building compassion are also helping here if this seems to be the thing you value in people towards making it a more comfortable environment for you? Like I’m wondering if this might be an unintended effect of general compassion building for animal welfare, and if interventions there might have some overlap in those best meant for this.
Sorry for my unfamiliarity, but could you explain what you mean by “translate experiences”? I feel as if I’ve probably interacted with what you’re talking about, but am not sure what exactly that is mapping onto.
I also hear you and am sorry that that has been your experience of the forum. But I really think it might be worth reconsidering that stance, because I think there’s a real chance it has changed in a significant way here, so maybe try it out again and see how it goes, in some small way that wouldn’t be too inconvenient for you if it hasn’t improved? I motivate it only because I think having as many perspectives on here as possible is a great thing, and that generally the emotional things we really care about are some of the best things to interact over.
Also don’t feel the need to respond to questions (even like the ones I’m asking) if it helps increase bandwidth for other things that don’t drain you similarly.
You asked about translation. I feel tired trying to explain this and I know that’s not your fault! But it’s why I just don’t think the Forum works well for this topic.
My guess is that talking about “women’s issues” on the Forum feels as similarly taxing to me as it does for most AI safety researchers to respond to people whose reaction to AGI concerns is, “ugh, tech bros are at it again” or even a well-intentioned, “I bet being in Silicon Valley skews your perspective on this. How many non-SV people have the kinds of concerns you mention?”
Most of us are tired of that naïve convo, esp with someone who thinks they have an informed take. Where do you even start?
Someone they trust has to say, “I’m like you and I’m concerned about this; it’s not just tech bro hype, and here’s why.” They have to translate across the inferential distance, ignorance, trust gap, and knowledge gap. They need to have the patience, time, and investment in bridging the gap.