It would be nice to imagine that aspiring to be a rational, moral community makes us one, but it’s just not so. All the problems in the culture at large will be manifest in EA, with our own virtues and our own flaws relative to baseline.
And that’s not to mitigate: a friend of mine was raped by a member of the Bay Area AI safety community. Predators can get a lot of money and social clout and use it to survive even after their misbehavior comes to light.
I don’t know how to deal with it except to address specific issues as they come to light. I guess I would just say that you are not alone in your concern for these issues, and that others do take significant action to address them. I support what I think of as a sort of “safety culture” for relationships, sexuality, race, and culture in the EA movement, which to me means promoting an openness to the issues, a culture of taking them seriously, and taking real steps to address them when they come up. So I see your post as beneficial in promoting that safety culture.
Hey AllAmericanBreakfast. I’m Catherine from the Community Health team. I’m so so sorry to hear that your friend was raped. If at all possible, I want to make sure they have support, justice, and that the perpetrator doesn’t have the opportunity to do this again. It doesn’t matter if your friend doesn’t identify as EA, if your friend, or the perpetrator are involved in the EA community in anyway we’re here to do our best to help. I’ll reach out via PM.
Hey :) I was raped before I was involved in EA. I normally find these discussions hard and frustrating. I feel we often talk past one another and that the people with similar experiences withdraw because it’s still painful/ they get frustrated and hurt. I would like people like me to know: 1. There are a lot of people who have similar experiences to me who are active in the EA community. You may not see them here because of the aforementioned issue but we are here. 2. There are a lot of people who take these issues very seriously, including me, 3. I trust and endorse Catherine Low entirely. She has seen it all with me and has been kind, empathetic, and not unilateral. 4. To the extent possible, please consider reporting either to Catherine, the community health team or the police, or both. Kirsten is entirely right, this is horrifically unfair and you have no obligation to do so, but it is very important that people with a track record of sexual (any) violence not be in positions of power in any institutions or communities for the safety of other community members. 5. If there is anything whatsoever I can do, including talking openly about my experiences (I do have a blog draft actually about how I coped with my rape) which I am happy to share, an adamant vouch for Catherine and CEA’s team, or just generally a cup of tea, you should hit me up.
And that’s not to mitigate: a friend of mine was raped by a member of the Bay Area AI safety community. Predators can get a lot of money and social clout and use it to survive even after their misbehavior comes to light.
I’m very sad to hear about this.
I don’t understand why the community health team is not able to handle this kind of thing. Did your friend make a report? Does the community health team need more funding or employees? Are they afraid to take on people with clout?
Even if the accused is doing a lot of good work, if the accusation is found to be credible, at the very least we should ensure the accused does not occupy a position of responsibility. If they are serious about AI safety, they should agree to this measure themselves, for the sake of guarding humanity’s future.
EAs should work to ensure that positions of responsibility are occupied by people of exemplary moral character, in my view. (Edit for clarification: I don’t want my view rounded off to “EAs should work to ensure positions of responsibility are occupied by the people who are hardest to cancel”. For example, my notion of “exemplary moral character” accounts for the possibility that failure to report on false accusations made by Kathy Forth could represent a character deficit, even if such failure-to-report makes one harder to cancel. I also think that everyone is flawed, and ability to recognize and learn from one’s mistakes is really important.)
I am confident this comes from a good place but I really really dislike that this comment is telling (the friend of) someone who was raped what she should do. People who have been raped can respond however they want, whether they decide to report the situation or not is entirely up to them, and I hate when people act like there is one correct response.
I’m interested in understanding your position better. Do you agree there are circumstances under which reporting a crime is the correct response? (Would you agree that an FTX employee blowing the whistle on SBF would be the correct response, for example?) If you can think of at least one scenario where you think reporting a crime is the correct response, maybe you could outline how this scenario differs? (For the purpose of our discussion, I’m assuming that the current crime is serious, unambiguous, and unrepented, constituting significant evidence that the perpetrator will cause major harm to others.)
My first guess is you think there’s something unique about rape such that the associated trauma means reporting can cause suffering. In that case, this would appear to be a straightforward demandingness dilemma—one’s feeling about the statement “it is correct to report rape” might be similar to one’s feeling about the statement “it is correct to forgo luxuries to donate to effective charities”. In both cases you’re looking at taking on discomfort yourself in order to do good for others. (In my mind the key considerations for demandingness dilemmas are: how much good you’re doing for others, how much discomfort you’re taking on, and what is personally psychologically sustainable for you. And I think saying “Seems to me they should [do the demanding thing]” is generally OK.)
Hey Truck Driver Wannabe (great Forum name by the way) - I’m a medical doctor and have recently completed extra training in helping people who’ve experienced sexual assault. There are no ‘shoulds’ (except that the perpetrator should not have done it). I can’t do this topic justice in a Forum commentary (nor would I want to) but if you’d like to contact me directly, I’m happy to talk to you more about this.
I really appreciate your effort to understand the other side of the argument and I see why you are confused about the reaction.
For me, I find the idea that a person has any responsibility whatsoever to involve the cea community health team in any matter regarding their personal life (including and especially sexual assault) baffling. Reporting to CEA is not obviously net harm reducing, because a predator who is kicked out of CEA sponsored events can and will just move to another community and continue their predatory behavior elsewhere. And that is assuming that CEA handles the situation perfectly.
I also don’t think a person has such a responsibility to report to law enforcement, only partly because law enforcement has generally not earned a reputation for handling these cases well.
If we lived in a different world where law enforcement was more competent in these cases, then I agree this would be a straightforward demandingness dilemma. However, I don’t expect anyone to be publicly retraumatized in the service of helping strangers and I think it is extremely unfair to do so. Being publicly humiliated, mocked, disbelieved, called names, concern trolled, having every past sexual and romantic encounter up for public scrutiny, and being forced to publicly and repeatedly detail the most horrifying moments of your life is not even almost the same as, say, donating ten percent of your income. All or many of these things often happen to people who report sexual assault to a responsible and thorough law enforcement agency that does all the right things and has ample resources.
In general I don’t think it’s that healthy to expect others to give a certain amount of their time or money or anything else. I think we should all set an example in our own lives and be public about why we make the choices we do, but respect that others have the right to choose what and how much they give (emotionally and otherwise). But even if I didn’t believe that in general, I would still believe it in case of sexual assault.
“I find the idea that a person has any responsibility whatsoever to donate to $EA_CHARITY baffling.”
“Donating to $EA_CHARITY is not obviously net harm reducing. Their work may funge against other efforts. And even if they do perfect work, solving poverty in the developing world still leaves developed-world poverty as a major problem.”
“The person reading your comment could be almost broke, such that if they donate to $EA_CHARITY they would homeless and destitute. It is unreasonable for us to ask anyone to take that sacrifice.”
“Other charities which claim to solve the problem $EA_CHARITY works on have been found to be scams. Don’t be surprised if they sell your credit card details to cybercriminals.”
“People have the right to choose how much they give.”
These are all valid replies I agree with partially or fully.
But they all seem to operate under the assumption that I hold a much different position than the one I actually hold. I’m not totally sure what I did to give people the mistaken impression.
Maybe I just need to learn to avoid triggering people.
In any case, I think you and I agree more than we disagree.
It would be nice to imagine that aspiring to be a rational, moral community makes us one, but it’s just not so. All the problems in the culture at large will be manifest in EA, with our own virtues and our own flaws relative to baseline.
And that’s not to mitigate: a friend of mine was raped by a member of the Bay Area AI safety community. Predators can get a lot of money and social clout and use it to survive even after their misbehavior comes to light.
I don’t know how to deal with it except to address specific issues as they come to light. I guess I would just say that you are not alone in your concern for these issues, and that others do take significant action to address them. I support what I think of as a sort of “safety culture” for relationships, sexuality, race, and culture in the EA movement, which to me means promoting an openness to the issues, a culture of taking them seriously, and taking real steps to address them when they come up. So I see your post as beneficial in promoting that safety culture.
Hey AllAmericanBreakfast. I’m Catherine from the Community Health team. I’m so so sorry to hear that your friend was raped. If at all possible, I want to make sure they have support, justice, and that the perpetrator doesn’t have the opportunity to do this again. It doesn’t matter if your friend doesn’t identify as EA, if your friend, or the perpetrator are involved in the EA community in anyway we’re here to do our best to help. I’ll reach out via PM.
Hey :) I was raped before I was involved in EA. I normally find these discussions hard and frustrating. I feel we often talk past one another and that the people with similar experiences withdraw because it’s still painful/ they get frustrated and hurt. I would like people like me to know: 1. There are a lot of people who have similar experiences to me who are active in the EA community. You may not see them here because of the aforementioned issue but we are here. 2. There are a lot of people who take these issues very seriously, including me, 3. I trust and endorse Catherine Low entirely. She has seen it all with me and has been kind, empathetic, and not unilateral. 4. To the extent possible, please consider reporting either to Catherine, the community health team or the police, or both. Kirsten is entirely right, this is horrifically unfair and you have no obligation to do so, but it is very important that people with a track record of sexual (any) violence not be in positions of power in any institutions or communities for the safety of other community members. 5. If there is anything whatsoever I can do, including talking openly about my experiences (I do have a blog draft actually about how I coped with my rape) which I am happy to share, an adamant vouch for Catherine and CEA’s team, or just generally a cup of tea, you should hit me up.
I’m very sad to hear about this.
I don’t understand why the community health team is not able to handle this kind of thing. Did your friend make a report? Does the community health team need more funding or employees? Are they afraid to take on people with clout?
Even if the accused is doing a lot of good work, if the accusation is found to be credible, at the very least we should ensure the accused does not occupy a position of responsibility. If they are serious about AI safety, they should agree to this measure themselves, for the sake of guarding humanity’s future.
EAs should work to ensure that positions of responsibility are occupied by people of exemplary moral character, in my view. (Edit for clarification: I don’t want my view rounded off to “EAs should work to ensure positions of responsibility are occupied by the people who are hardest to cancel”. For example, my notion of “exemplary moral character” accounts for the possibility that failure to report on false accusations made by Kathy Forth could represent a character deficit, even if such failure-to-report makes one harder to cancel. I also think that everyone is flawed, and ability to recognize and learn from one’s mistakes is really important.)
My friend is not part of EA, she was just at an EA-adjacent organization, where the community health team does not have reach AFAIK.
Seems to me she should be talking to them anyway.
I am confident this comes from a good place but I really really dislike that this comment is telling (the friend of) someone who was raped what she should do. People who have been raped can respond however they want, whether they decide to report the situation or not is entirely up to them, and I hate when people act like there is one correct response.
Thanks Kirsten.
I’m interested in understanding your position better. Do you agree there are circumstances under which reporting a crime is the correct response? (Would you agree that an FTX employee blowing the whistle on SBF would be the correct response, for example?) If you can think of at least one scenario where you think reporting a crime is the correct response, maybe you could outline how this scenario differs? (For the purpose of our discussion, I’m assuming that the current crime is serious, unambiguous, and unrepented, constituting significant evidence that the perpetrator will cause major harm to others.)
My first guess is you think there’s something unique about rape such that the associated trauma means reporting can cause suffering. In that case, this would appear to be a straightforward demandingness dilemma—one’s feeling about the statement “it is correct to report rape” might be similar to one’s feeling about the statement “it is correct to forgo luxuries to donate to effective charities”. In both cases you’re looking at taking on discomfort yourself in order to do good for others. (In my mind the key considerations for demandingness dilemmas are: how much good you’re doing for others, how much discomfort you’re taking on, and what is personally psychologically sustainable for you. And I think saying “Seems to me they should [do the demanding thing]” is generally OK.)
Thanks for any thoughts you’re willing to share.
Hey Truck Driver Wannabe (great Forum name by the way) - I’m a medical doctor and have recently completed extra training in helping people who’ve experienced sexual assault. There are no ‘shoulds’ (except that the perpetrator should not have done it). I can’t do this topic justice in a Forum commentary (nor would I want to) but if you’d like to contact me directly, I’m happy to talk to you more about this.
Hi Truck Driver Wannabe,
I really appreciate your effort to understand the other side of the argument and I see why you are confused about the reaction.
For me, I find the idea that a person has any responsibility whatsoever to involve the cea community health team in any matter regarding their personal life (including and especially sexual assault) baffling. Reporting to CEA is not obviously net harm reducing, because a predator who is kicked out of CEA sponsored events can and will just move to another community and continue their predatory behavior elsewhere. And that is assuming that CEA handles the situation perfectly.
I also don’t think a person has such a responsibility to report to law enforcement, only partly because law enforcement has generally not earned a reputation for handling these cases well.
If we lived in a different world where law enforcement was more competent in these cases, then I agree this would be a straightforward demandingness dilemma. However, I don’t expect anyone to be publicly retraumatized in the service of helping strangers and I think it is extremely unfair to do so. Being publicly humiliated, mocked, disbelieved, called names, concern trolled, having every past sexual and romantic encounter up for public scrutiny, and being forced to publicly and repeatedly detail the most horrifying moments of your life is not even almost the same as, say, donating ten percent of your income. All or many of these things often happen to people who report sexual assault to a responsible and thorough law enforcement agency that does all the right things and has ample resources.
In general I don’t think it’s that healthy to expect others to give a certain amount of their time or money or anything else. I think we should all set an example in our own lives and be public about why we make the choices we do, but respect that others have the right to choose what and how much they give (emotionally and otherwise). But even if I didn’t believe that in general, I would still believe it in case of sexual assault.
Hi Monica, thanks for the reply.
Suppose my original comment was
And I got these replies:
“I find the idea that a person has any responsibility whatsoever to donate to $EA_CHARITY baffling.”
“Donating to $EA_CHARITY is not obviously net harm reducing. Their work may funge against other efforts. And even if they do perfect work, solving poverty in the developing world still leaves developed-world poverty as a major problem.”
“The person reading your comment could be almost broke, such that if they donate to $EA_CHARITY they would homeless and destitute. It is unreasonable for us to ask anyone to take that sacrifice.”
“Other charities which claim to solve the problem $EA_CHARITY works on have been found to be scams. Don’t be surprised if they sell your credit card details to cybercriminals.”
“People have the right to choose how much they give.”
These are all valid replies I agree with partially or fully.
But they all seem to operate under the assumption that I hold a much different position than the one I actually hold. I’m not totally sure what I did to give people the mistaken impression.
Maybe I just need to learn to avoid triggering people.
In any case, I think you and I agree more than we disagree.