Regardless of the accuracy of this comment, it makes me sad that the top comment on this post is adversarial/argumentative and showing little emotional understanding/empathy (particularly the line “getting called out in posts like this one”). I think it unfortunately demonstrates well the point the author made about EA having an emotions problem:
On the forum in particular and in EA discourse in general, there is a tendency to give less weight/be more critical of posts that are more emotion-heavy and less rational. This tendency makes sense based on EA principles… to a certain extent. To stay true to the aforementioned values of scientific mindset and openness, it makes sense that we challenge people’s ideas and are truth-seeking in our comments. However, there is an important distinction between interrogating someone’s research and interrogating someone’s lived experience. I fear that the attitude of truth-seeking and challenging one another to be better has led to an inclination to suspend compassion in the absence of substantial evidence of wrongdoing. You’re allowed to be sorry that someone experienced something without fully understanding it.
To be honest I’m relieved this is one of the top comments. I’ve seen Kathy mentioned a few times recently in a way I didn’t think was accurate and I didn’t feel able to respond. I think anyone who comes across her story will have questions and I’m glad someone’s addressed the questions even if it’s just in a limited way.
I very rarely engage in karma voting, and didn’t do so for this comment either. That said, one relevant point is that the comment with the most karma gets to sit at the top of the comments section. That means that many people probably vote with an intention to functionally “pin” a comment, and it may not be so much that they think the comment should represent the most important reaction to a post, as that they think it provides crucial context for readers. I think this comment does provide context on the part of this otherwise very good and important post that made me most uncomfortable as stated. I also agree that Alexander’s tone isn’t great, though I read it in almost the opposite way from you (as an emotional reaction in defense of his friends who came forward about Forth).
Scott Alexander’s response is the first time I see that there is someone I can contact who has substantial claims of evidence that Kathy Forth’s accusations were false. I’ve heard of Kathy twice in the last month (don’t remember hearing about her at all before then), as have others in my local community. Many find Scott Alexander’s response valuable, which is why it is the top comment. A large part of the EA community appears to only recently be learning about Kathy Forth.
it makes me sad that the top comment on this post is adversarial/argumentative and showing little emotional understanding/empathy (particularly the line “getting called out in posts like this one”). I think it unfortunately demonstrates well the point the author made about EA having an emotions problem
I personally think Scott shows immense emotional maturity responding to this in a context where he is opening himself up to huge scrutiny, including the criticism of being told he is being too adversarial and lacking empathy. He removed the sentence in question after some reflection, updating immediately and explaining his thought process, empathising with another’s perspective and recognizing his own emotional state that led to him to include that sentence. To me these seem the hallmarks of being a well emotionally regulated individual. If it isn’t, what does a person with emotional understanding/empathy do differently in this situation?
Before you answer that question, let’s take a moment to actually highlight what the situation even is:
Kathy Forth was a human, a member of our community, that committed suicide. Given the serious implications of Kathy Forth’s accusations if they were to be true, it seems that we should place a lot of value on anything that can confirm or deny the veracity of Kathy Forth’s story. Do you disagree?
This is the sentence you don’t like that Scott brought up. He removed it.
But they wouldn’t do that, I’m guessing because they were all terrified of getting called out in posts like this one.
OP wrote the following words that, for lack of a better word, triggered Scott. She also has the opportunity to amend or qualify these words:
I read about Kathy Forth, a woman who was heavily involved in the Effective Altruism and Rationalist communities. She committed suicide in 2018, attributing large portions of her suffering to her experiences of sexual harassment and sexual assault in these communities. She accuses several people of harassment, at least one of whom is an incredibly prominent figure in the EA community. It is unclear to me what, if any, actions were taken in response to (some) of her claims and her suicide. What is clear is the pages and pages of tumblr posts and Reddit threats, some from prominent members of the EA and Rationalist communities, disparaging Kathy and denying her accusations.
Nowhere in what OP writes above does she even seem to entertain the possibility that at least some of Kathy’s major accusations could be false (she says “It is unclear to me what, if any, actions were taken in response to (some) of her claims and her suicide” but nothing akin to “It is unclear to me whether Kathy Forth’s accusations were true”).
Kathy Forth’s story is a really really serious accusation. One in which whether we believe it is true or false would and should significantly update our priors around how the EA community treats the concerns of women. If viewed to be true, it would frame the experiences of women and the EA community’s prior response to them in a very sinister light. If viewed to be false, then concerns 1+2 don’t have a broader sinister context and could be more optimistically corrected with improved managment and a culture shift in EA. For example...
I agree that Swapcard at EAGs should, in the vast majority of cases, not be used for dating (my dudes in EA… this past weekend at EAGx Berkeley I met a woman that was flat out frustrated that she was hit on through Swapcard one-on-ones twice within 24 hours… facepalm)
I agree profusely that ranking women by how much you want to have sex with them and publicly sharing that casually is creepy as all hell (my dudes in EA… how it is possible that so many of you can be so into “intrumental rationality” and yet act so obviously against your own self-interests when it comes to your behaviour around women is beyond me… facepalm)
These issues seem like something we can come together and fix. But if Kathy Forth’s accusations are true, then it is implied that EA as a community is much more sinister and not interested in addressing the concerns of women. If Kathy Forth’s accusations are true, then there is a deep rot within the EA community. There is no “facepalm” joke I’d be able to light-heartedly say about it, as if it were a thing we can reasonably fix. If Kathy Forth’s accusations are true, OP is right to be scared.
OP’s framing of Kathy Forth’s experience strongly implies they view Kathy Forth’s accusations as more true than false. I don’t know if she believes this because either:
a) She had bad experiences in EA and that made her update more towards “Kathy Forth’s story is probably true” b) She thought Kathy Forth’s story is probably more true than false, and that made her update her experiences in EA as more bad (in a broader sinister context) than they otherwise would be
But the epistemic particulars are beside the point, because either way, if Scott is able to provide compelling evidence that parts of Kathy Forth’s story is false, this could help OP (and everyone else) feel less sad, disappointed and scared and that can only be a good thing.
OP, if you are reading this, I realize the EA community can seem intimidating. I empathize strongly with you when you expressed concern about how others will judge your writing style and take you less seriously if it did not conform to forum standards (why hello there… my still haven’t-made-one-post self… something I am still embarrassed about given how long I’ve been a part of EA). That said, I am confident if you made a very short post just like “Please, what happened to Kathy Forth and why? I need to know, I cant sleep. I feel sad, disappointed, and scared.” the EA community would have responded with compassion—not caring that the post didn’t abide by some set of forum norms. But, regardless, you did put effort into a longer post here so I just want to say I’m glad you posted this.
Regardless of the accuracy of this comment, it makes me sad that the top comment on this post is adversarial/argumentative and showing little emotional understanding/empathy (particularly the line “getting called out in posts like this one”). I think it unfortunately demonstrates well the point the author made about EA having an emotions problem:
To be honest I’m relieved this is one of the top comments. I’ve seen Kathy mentioned a few times recently in a way I didn’t think was accurate and I didn’t feel able to respond. I think anyone who comes across her story will have questions and I’m glad someone’s addressed the questions even if it’s just in a limited way.
My point isn’t about the information contained in the comment, it’s about the tone.
I very rarely engage in karma voting, and didn’t do so for this comment either. That said, one relevant point is that the comment with the most karma gets to sit at the top of the comments section. That means that many people probably vote with an intention to functionally “pin” a comment, and it may not be so much that they think the comment should represent the most important reaction to a post, as that they think it provides crucial context for readers. I think this comment does provide context on the part of this otherwise very good and important post that made me most uncomfortable as stated. I also agree that Alexander’s tone isn’t great, though I read it in almost the opposite way from you (as an emotional reaction in defense of his friends who came forward about Forth).
Scott Alexander’s response is the first time I see that there is someone I can contact who has substantial claims of evidence that Kathy Forth’s accusations were false. I’ve heard of Kathy twice in the last month (don’t remember hearing about her at all before then), as have others in my local community. Many find Scott Alexander’s response valuable, which is why it is the top comment. A large part of the EA community appears to only recently be learning about Kathy Forth.
I personally think Scott shows immense emotional maturity responding to this in a context where he is opening himself up to huge scrutiny, including the criticism of being told he is being too adversarial and lacking empathy. He removed the sentence in question after some reflection, updating immediately and explaining his thought process, empathising with another’s perspective and recognizing his own emotional state that led to him to include that sentence. To me these seem the hallmarks of being a well emotionally regulated individual. If it isn’t, what does a person with emotional understanding/empathy do differently in this situation?
Before you answer that question, let’s take a moment to actually highlight what the situation even is:
Kathy Forth was a human, a member of our community, that committed suicide. Given the serious implications of Kathy Forth’s accusations if they were to be true, it seems that we should place a lot of value on anything that can confirm or deny the veracity of Kathy Forth’s story. Do you disagree?
This is the sentence you don’t like that Scott brought up. He removed it.
OP wrote the following words that, for lack of a better word, triggered Scott. She also has the opportunity to amend or qualify these words:
Nowhere in what OP writes above does she even seem to entertain the possibility that at least some of Kathy’s major accusations could be false (she says “It is unclear to me what, if any, actions were taken in response to (some) of her claims and her suicide” but nothing akin to “It is unclear to me whether Kathy Forth’s accusations were true”).
Kathy Forth’s story is a really really serious accusation. One in which whether we believe it is true or false would and should significantly update our priors around how the EA community treats the concerns of women. If viewed to be true, it would frame the experiences of women and the EA community’s prior response to them in a very sinister light. If viewed to be false, then concerns 1+2 don’t have a broader sinister context and could be more optimistically corrected with improved managment and a culture shift in EA. For example...
I agree that Swapcard at EAGs should, in the vast majority of cases, not be used for dating (my dudes in EA… this past weekend at EAGx Berkeley I met a woman that was flat out frustrated that she was hit on through Swapcard one-on-ones twice within 24 hours… facepalm)
I agree profusely that ranking women by how much you want to have sex with them and publicly sharing that casually is creepy as all hell (my dudes in EA… how it is possible that so many of you can be so into “intrumental rationality” and yet act so obviously against your own self-interests when it comes to your behaviour around women is beyond me… facepalm)
These issues seem like something we can come together and fix. But if Kathy Forth’s accusations are true, then it is implied that EA as a community is much more sinister and not interested in addressing the concerns of women. If Kathy Forth’s accusations are true, then there is a deep rot within the EA community. There is no “facepalm” joke I’d be able to light-heartedly say about it, as if it were a thing we can reasonably fix. If Kathy Forth’s accusations are true, OP is right to be scared.
OP’s framing of Kathy Forth’s experience strongly implies they view Kathy Forth’s accusations as more true than false. I don’t know if she believes this because either:
a) She had bad experiences in EA and that made her update more towards “Kathy Forth’s story is probably true”
b) She thought Kathy Forth’s story is probably more true than false, and that made her update her experiences in EA as more bad (in a broader sinister context) than they otherwise would be
But the epistemic particulars are beside the point, because either way, if Scott is able to provide compelling evidence that parts of Kathy Forth’s story is false, this could help OP (and everyone else) feel less sad, disappointed and scared and that can only be a good thing.
OP, if you are reading this, I realize the EA community can seem intimidating. I empathize strongly with you when you expressed concern about how others will judge your writing style and take you less seriously if it did not conform to forum standards (why hello there… my still haven’t-made-one-post self… something I am still embarrassed about given how long I’ve been a part of EA). That said, I am confident if you made a very short post just like “Please, what happened to Kathy Forth and why? I need to know, I cant sleep. I feel sad, disappointed, and scared.” the EA community would have responded with compassion—not caring that the post didn’t abide by some set of forum norms. But, regardless, you did put effort into a longer post here so I just want to say I’m glad you posted this.