Importantly, those do not tend to be “watered down” in a naive fashion. Instead the core ideas slowly get replaced by ideas that are easier to understand and easier to spread (which can often also mean that they are more radical)
We seem to agree on this—that value drift is common, but that this could just as well lead to more radicalism as to less radicalism.
I agree with xccf here that the natural direction in which I expect EA ideas to morph to become more self-propagating is in the direction of existing charity.
Why is that? I can’t see that that follows from your preceding paragraph, where you implied that your historical studies indicates that value drift could just as well lead to more radicalism as to less radicalism.
Again, I think that the EA movement is a highly idealistic and intellectual movement, and that it should be compared with historical examples of such movements, rather than with social movements in general. It seems to me that such movements often face the risk of turning extreme and sect-like, whereas the risk of dilution is lower.
A salient example is that of later 19th century and early 20th century socialism, with its partition of pragmatic social democrats (frequently accused of dilution) and communists. The communists either failed to influence politics (in Western Europe, with some exceptions), because they were seen as too extreme, or became totally corrupted when they acquired power (in the Soviet Union and China). The moderate social democrats, on the other hand, managed to contribute to highly succesful welfare states in Western Europe.
I also think that within any movements—but perhaps especially in strongly idealistic and intellectual movements—“extreme” ideas and behaviour, which are rejected by the out-group, can give you credit within the in-group, even though they don’t necessarily help the movement. I think this is what has happened to many socialist groups, and that we have to look out for that.
This said, I also find this question very hard and don’t have a complete understanding of past social movements or indeed the EA movement’s current state. I would like to see more research, and that this research is made publically available, so that it can get critically discussed. This question is very important, so we need to get a better grasp of it as soon as possible. It would probably be good to have non-EA historians or sociologists look into it, since they would have fewer axes to grind and would be less prone to biases (as outsiders).
(Reviving a bit of an old thread, but just noticed this response in my inbox)
I think you make a good point here, and I think I might have underestimated the risk of EA becoming too radicalized. I will think about this more, and maybe try to do some concrete scenario planning on specific ways in which I can imagine the EA movement becoming too radical.
It’s a really important thing to look out for and understand well, so I am very happy about your contribution. Thanks!
We seem to agree on this—that value drift is common, but that this could just as well lead to more radicalism as to less radicalism.
Why is that? I can’t see that that follows from your preceding paragraph, where you implied that your historical studies indicates that value drift could just as well lead to more radicalism as to less radicalism.
Again, I think that the EA movement is a highly idealistic and intellectual movement, and that it should be compared with historical examples of such movements, rather than with social movements in general. It seems to me that such movements often face the risk of turning extreme and sect-like, whereas the risk of dilution is lower.
A salient example is that of later 19th century and early 20th century socialism, with its partition of pragmatic social democrats (frequently accused of dilution) and communists. The communists either failed to influence politics (in Western Europe, with some exceptions), because they were seen as too extreme, or became totally corrupted when they acquired power (in the Soviet Union and China). The moderate social democrats, on the other hand, managed to contribute to highly succesful welfare states in Western Europe.
I also think that within any movements—but perhaps especially in strongly idealistic and intellectual movements—“extreme” ideas and behaviour, which are rejected by the out-group, can give you credit within the in-group, even though they don’t necessarily help the movement. I think this is what has happened to many socialist groups, and that we have to look out for that.
This said, I also find this question very hard and don’t have a complete understanding of past social movements or indeed the EA movement’s current state. I would like to see more research, and that this research is made publically available, so that it can get critically discussed. This question is very important, so we need to get a better grasp of it as soon as possible. It would probably be good to have non-EA historians or sociologists look into it, since they would have fewer axes to grind and would be less prone to biases (as outsiders).
(Reviving a bit of an old thread, but just noticed this response in my inbox)
I think you make a good point here, and I think I might have underestimated the risk of EA becoming too radicalized. I will think about this more, and maybe try to do some concrete scenario planning on specific ways in which I can imagine the EA movement becoming too radical.
It’s a really important thing to look out for and understand well, so I am very happy about your contribution. Thanks!
Thank you yourself. It’s a really hard topic which we’ll have to have ongoing discussions about.