i just don’t see us getting to that point via individual change (which in the current framing of “going vegan” entails identity change). i see us getting there via structural change. and think a critical factor for achieving structural change is through stigmatizing the act of eating animal-based foods (and the industry that produces them). the sentience institute has done some good work here (https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/foundational-questions-summaries#individual-vs.-institutional-interventions-and-messaging)
of course, it’s not one or the other. some level of individual change is required for enabling structural change (perhaps the two best articles i know that argue this are Lessig 1995 and Sunstein 1996). but given this movement’s historical focus on the former, i think it’s time to start exploring individual strategies for pursing the latter.
So, I think perhaps our disagreement is that I don’t think we have reached the critical mass to stigmatizing it yet. In the US or western countries in general veganism is ~1-2%. Vegetarianism and flexitarianism might rise that up to 8 to 10%. My intuition is that at this level one would still be seen eccentric enough to signal that animals are worth welfare considerations, but also eccentric enough that you risk marginalization (and very little impact?) if you attempt structural change.
i think we are further along than most assume. yes, the percentage of vegans is devastatingly small. BUT, there is reason to believe there is rapid growing social support:
“Yet a 2014 U.S. survey found that 93 percent of respondents felt it was “very important” to buy their food from humane sources. Eighty-seven percent believe “farmed animals have roughly the same ability to feel pain and discomfort as humans.” And an astounding 47 percent of U.S. adults say in a survey that they support the seemingly radical policy change of “a ban on slaughterhouses.”” https://progressive.org/magazine/emptying-the-cages/
in my eyes, practicing the Pledge is a strategy for helping others who already feel open to these positions [i.e., the majority] reify their support.
I see, it makes sense. Yet, my belief is that these people are willing to say they would do so if it were “free”, but it never is, if only because it requires efforts to change your own habits. If they really wanted, do you think they don’t do it for the risk of criticism of others, or why?
Notice that the idea of making it simple to eat less meat addresses what I think is the main obstacle: changing routines.
unfortunately, i think shockingly few people are willing to make significant personal “sacrifices” for ethical reasons (i put “sacrifice” in quotations because i don’t see being vegan as a sacrifice—the important thing, however, is that others still do...).
i think there are a lot of reasons that hold people back from “going” vegan… the [perceived] hassle, social cost, free-rider effect, associated identity change, etc.
i think the solution is winning systemic change, i.e., policies that change the entire decision-making environment. e.g., as i argue in my forthcoming book (shameless plug), if the sale of meat was banned, all of society would go vegetarian by default (and the collective transition would make it easier for everyone). this systemic change reduces (or eliminates) the hassle, social cost, fear of free riders undermining us, and the need to change identity that often comes with going vegan.
the key, in my mind, is creating the social conditions that will allow for far-reaching systemic changes to become viable, and i view the Pledge as one action (among others) that individuals can take to help.
yup, i definitely agree on the objective 👍
i just don’t see us getting to that point via individual change (which in the current framing of “going vegan” entails identity change). i see us getting there via structural change. and think a critical factor for achieving structural change is through stigmatizing the act of eating animal-based foods (and the industry that produces them). the sentience institute has done some good work here (https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/foundational-questions-summaries#individual-vs.-institutional-interventions-and-messaging)
of course, it’s not one or the other. some level of individual change is required for enabling structural change (perhaps the two best articles i know that argue this are Lessig 1995 and Sunstein 1996). but given this movement’s historical focus on the former, i think it’s time to start exploring individual strategies for pursing the latter.
So, I think perhaps our disagreement is that I don’t think we have reached the critical mass to stigmatizing it yet. In the US or western countries in general veganism is ~1-2%. Vegetarianism and flexitarianism might rise that up to 8 to 10%. My intuition is that at this level one would still be seen eccentric enough to signal that animals are worth welfare considerations, but also eccentric enough that you risk marginalization (and very little impact?) if you attempt structural change.
i think we are further along than most assume. yes, the percentage of vegans is devastatingly small. BUT, there is reason to believe there is rapid growing social support:
“Yet a 2014 U.S. survey found that 93 percent of respondents felt it was “very important” to buy their food from humane sources. Eighty-seven percent believe “farmed animals have roughly the same ability to feel pain and discomfort as humans.” And an astounding 47 percent of U.S. adults say in a survey that they support the seemingly radical policy change of “a ban on slaughterhouses.””
https://progressive.org/magazine/emptying-the-cages/
in my eyes, practicing the Pledge is a strategy for helping others who already feel open to these positions [i.e., the majority] reify their support.
I see, it makes sense. Yet, my belief is that these people are willing to say they would do so if it were “free”, but it never is, if only because it requires efforts to change your own habits. If they really wanted, do you think they don’t do it for the risk of criticism of others, or why? Notice that the idea of making it simple to eat less meat addresses what I think is the main obstacle: changing routines.
unfortunately, i think shockingly few people are willing to make significant personal “sacrifices” for ethical reasons (i put “sacrifice” in quotations because i don’t see being vegan as a sacrifice—the important thing, however, is that others still do...).
i think there are a lot of reasons that hold people back from “going” vegan… the [perceived] hassle, social cost, free-rider effect, associated identity change, etc.
i think the solution is winning systemic change, i.e., policies that change the entire decision-making environment. e.g., as i argue in my forthcoming book (shameless plug), if the sale of meat was banned, all of society would go vegetarian by default (and the collective transition would make it easier for everyone). this systemic change reduces (or eliminates) the hassle, social cost, fear of free riders undermining us, and the need to change identity that often comes with going vegan.
the key, in my mind, is creating the social conditions that will allow for far-reaching systemic changes to become viable, and i view the Pledge as one action (among others) that individuals can take to help.