I’m not just saying the probability that this post will be discovered or clicked on is very low.
In my above comment, I’m saying a computer vision project, like I think the OP proposed, has a very low risk of harm, so this danger is outweighed by the value from a viable, well executed EA project along these lines (assuming that such a promising project exists).
I have these beliefs for reasons that include the following:
Someone I know, works or has knowledge of, and working experience in “AI” “machine learning” and leading experimental projects, that is probably above median EA knowledge in those areas.
Also, I think a well aligned and executed project could be more valuable than it seems from just discussion. This is because the actual implementation of a system (and welfare improving projects that don’t include “AI”) is really important. Differences in execution, which can be subtle, small, and hard to communicate, can affect welfare, more than “desk research” or non-expert discussion suggests. Assuming they can execute it, an EA can take advantage of this, and supplant/compete with alternative systems.
It’s possible that this is wrong, but I’m not immediately sure it’s possible to communicate this.
I think it’s good to write this comment, because well, EA forum discussion is like, possibly stopping potential actual EA projects, and that’s bad.
I might see one of your main points now. It might be “The grand parent comment dramatically understates how much the industry actively works on/crowds out related profit maximizing research.”
I actually addressed this too, I said, in point three of my original comment, that it’s likely that they will discover this intervention. And yes there are a lot of machine vision related projects on chicken factory farming, and therefore I think it’s most likely just a matter time they discover this specific issue of coccidiosis being able to be solved by machine vision. There I also described my concern: speeding it up might also affects the alt-protein industry.
Also, I think a well aligned and executed project could be more valuable than it seems from just discussion.
I understand where you are coming from. I am personally trying to realize a humane slaughter project. Which itself has the risk of helping the industry. I can reduce a big part of the risk by having the discussions offline. Now that Max and I got connected we can actually talk about the idea offline. But I am yet to be convinced to be not concerned about having all these online.
Also, I think I have some other ideas that don’t have such risks and could be good use of Max’s time. I will post them in another comment. But let me say one example and use it to illustrate why these ideas might be better.
Low oxygen level is a major welfare problem in aquaculture (fish and crustaceans). For fish, when they are low on oxygen, their mouths rise above the water more often and it can be seen. The difficulty for humans is that it’s hard to see, and even if they can see it they cannot count the frequency because they can’t stand they looking all day. This is where training a machine learning algorithm helps. And the reason I believe this is okay to say on the forum is because of the different math of the impact. Coccidiosis affect only ~5% of flocks, and for these affected flocks 2% of chickens die. But Max’s proposed intervention will reduce the cost of medications/vaccines for 100% of the chickens that are in the factory farms that uses Max’s proposal. But the situation is different for dissolved oxygen. When you see a few fish’s mouths, it’s likely that the whole population of fish is suffering from low oxygen. So the propotion of “short-term” benefits is much higher that we might have more confidence that it might even outweight the longterm concerns.
I’m not just saying the probability that this post will be discovered or clicked on is very low.
In my above comment, I’m saying a computer vision project, like I think the OP proposed, has a very low risk of harm, so this danger is outweighed by the value from a viable, well executed EA project along these lines (assuming that such a promising project exists).
I have these beliefs for reasons that include the following:
Someone I know, works or has knowledge of, and working experience in “AI” “machine learning” and leading experimental projects, that is probably above median EA knowledge in those areas.
Similar to my comment above, here is the Google scholar search “computer vision chicken broilers”. There’s a lot of papers, including some from 2016, 2017. I think many of this work is in the same vein as the project. Here’s page 10 or so:
Also, I think a well aligned and executed project could be more valuable than it seems from just discussion. This is because the actual implementation of a system (and welfare improving projects that don’t include “AI”) is really important. Differences in execution, which can be subtle, small, and hard to communicate, can affect welfare, more than “desk research” or non-expert discussion suggests. Assuming they can execute it, an EA can take advantage of this, and supplant/compete with alternative systems.
It’s possible that this is wrong, but I’m not immediately sure it’s possible to communicate this.
I think it’s good to write this comment, because well, EA forum discussion is like, possibly stopping potential actual EA projects, and that’s bad.
I might see one of your main points now. It might be “The grand parent comment dramatically understates how much the industry actively works on/crowds out related profit maximizing research.”
I actually addressed this too, I said, in point three of my original comment, that it’s likely that they will discover this intervention. And yes there are a lot of machine vision related projects on chicken factory farming, and therefore I think it’s most likely just a matter time they discover this specific issue of coccidiosis being able to be solved by machine vision. There I also described my concern: speeding it up might also affects the alt-protein industry.
I understand where you are coming from. I am personally trying to realize a humane slaughter project. Which itself has the risk of helping the industry. I can reduce a big part of the risk by having the discussions offline. Now that Max and I got connected we can actually talk about the idea offline. But I am yet to be convinced to be not concerned about having all these online.
Also, I think I have some other ideas that don’t have such risks and could be good use of Max’s time. I will post them in another comment. But let me say one example and use it to illustrate why these ideas might be better.
Low oxygen level is a major welfare problem in aquaculture (fish and crustaceans). For fish, when they are low on oxygen, their mouths rise above the water more often and it can be seen. The difficulty for humans is that it’s hard to see, and even if they can see it they cannot count the frequency because they can’t stand they looking all day. This is where training a machine learning algorithm helps. And the reason I believe this is okay to say on the forum is because of the different math of the impact. Coccidiosis affect only ~5% of flocks, and for these affected flocks 2% of chickens die. But Max’s proposed intervention will reduce the cost of medications/vaccines for 100% of the chickens that are in the factory farms that uses Max’s proposal. But the situation is different for dissolved oxygen. When you see a few fish’s mouths, it’s likely that the whole population of fish is suffering from low oxygen. So the propotion of “short-term” benefits is much higher that we might have more confidence that it might even outweight the longterm concerns.
Thanks a lot for the thoughtful replies. I’m really glad it seems like you identified useful interventions that someone like Max can work on.