Hey Holly, it sounds like youāre frustrated by how people in EA are engaging with the idea of a pause. Iām sure thatās really hard, and Iām sure I donāt know even a fraction of what youāve gone through. I know youāre doing this advocacy work because you care a lot, and I really appreciate that. You know that I personally support your work.
However, Iām worried that this thread is becoming unproductive, and risks making the Forum feel like less of a safe space[1].
In particular, my concern is that you are criticizing @Denkenbergeršø directly in a way that appears to come from nowhere. @Denkenbergeršø doesnāt say anything about their personal views on a pause before you respond with:
But honestly all I hear are excuses. You wouldnāt want to help me if Carl said it was the right thing to do or youād have already realized what I said yourself. You wouldnāt be waiting for Carlās permission or anyone elseās. What youāre looking for is permission to stay on this corrupt be-the-problem strategy and it shows.
In my opinion, this sort of accusation without evidence erodes the Forumās ability to be a safe community space for important discussions. If itās the case that Iām missing some context and you have personal beef with @Denkenbergeršø, then I donāt think the Forum is the appropriate place to hash that out.
To be clear, I think the following are broadly fine and often good (assuming adherence to our Forum norms):
Criticizing ideas or actions that you disagree with, or see flaws in
Accusing a person or org of doing harm when you have some evidence to back that up
Sharing your feelings, including feelings of hurt and frustration
Holding those in power accountable
Flagging issues about the EA community, especially those that you think others are too afraid to flag
Flagging when someone is potentially not being truth-seeking, or is otherwise not following Forum norms (ideally in a kind way because our norms are unusual compared to the rest of the internet)
So Iād like to suggest that you take a step back from this thread. If you find yourself getting frustrated at others on the Forum elsewhere, Iād suggest taking a break from those as well.
Youāve written some of the best posts on this Forum, and the Forum Team greatly values your contributions. At the same time, I also think itās important that the Forum continues to be a productive discussion space.
The Forum should be a great and safe space: weāre working on hard problems, and the internet can be rough! We donāt want arbitrary barriers to keep people from joining discussions on the Forum, we donāt want people to be miserable on the Forum, and we want to promote excellent discussions and content.
Civility and charitable discussionāthe Forum should feel like a breath of fresh air and a refuge of sanity. When you join a discussion on the Forum, you should be able to reasonably expect that the other people wonāt twist your words, wonāt call you names, etc.
Safetyāif users feel unsafe on the Forum ā theyāre being threatened, or theyāre worried that if they post, theyāll have to fend off trolls on their own, etc. ā thatās our problem. We need to prevent this.
I think you hit the nail on the headā this forum is not a safe space for me. Like you said, Iām an all-time top poster, and yet I get snobby discouragement on everything I write since I started working on Pause, with the general theme that advocacy is not smart enough for EAs (and a secondary theme of wanting to work for AI companies).
This is a serious problem given what the EA Forum was supposed to be. Itās not a problem with following your rules for polite posts, but itās against something more importantā the purpose of the Forum and of the EA community.
But, Iāve clearly reached the end of my rope, and since Iād like to keep my account and be able to post new stuff here, Iāll just stop commenting.
Hey Holly, it sounds like youāre frustrated by how people in EA are engaging with the idea of a pause. Iām sure thatās really hard, and Iām sure I donāt know even a fraction of what youāve gone through. I know youāre doing this advocacy work because you care a lot, and I really appreciate that. You know that I personally support your work.
However, Iām worried that this thread is becoming unproductive, and risks making the Forum feel like less of a safe space[1].
In particular, my concern is that you are criticizing @Denkenbergeršø directly in a way that appears to come from nowhere. @Denkenbergeršø doesnāt say anything about their personal views on a pause before you respond with:
In my opinion, this sort of accusation without evidence erodes the Forumās ability to be a safe community space for important discussions. If itās the case that Iām missing some context and you have personal beef with @Denkenbergeršø, then I donāt think the Forum is the appropriate place to hash that out.
To be clear, I think the following are broadly fine and often good (assuming adherence to our Forum norms):
Criticizing ideas or actions that you disagree with, or see flaws in
Accusing a person or org of doing harm when you have some evidence to back that up
Sharing your feelings, including feelings of hurt and frustration
Holding those in power accountable
Flagging issues about the EA community, especially those that you think others are too afraid to flag
Flagging when someone is potentially not being truth-seeking, or is otherwise not following Forum norms (ideally in a kind way because our norms are unusual compared to the rest of the internet)
So Iād like to suggest that you take a step back from this thread. If you find yourself getting frustrated at others on the Forum elsewhere, Iād suggest taking a break from those as well.
Youāve written some of the best posts on this Forum, and the Forum Team greatly values your contributions. At the same time, I also think itās important that the Forum continues to be a productive discussion space.
A relevant quote from our āModeration principlesā post:
I think you hit the nail on the headā this forum is not a safe space for me. Like you said, Iām an all-time top poster, and yet I get snobby discouragement on everything I write since I started working on Pause, with the general theme that advocacy is not smart enough for EAs (and a secondary theme of wanting to work for AI companies).
This is a serious problem given what the EA Forum was supposed to be. Itās not a problem with following your rules for polite posts, but itās against something more importantā the purpose of the Forum and of the EA community.
But, Iāve clearly reached the end of my rope, and since Iād like to keep my account and be able to post new stuff here, Iāll just stop commenting.