Well, this is what you get for using vague words like “trust” :)
I didn’t mean to talk abou “epistemic trust”/deference in the post. I don’t think that people should defer to “leadership” much at all (maybe a bit more to “experts”, who are not the same people).
That is very different to trusting them to behave well, represent our movement, and take decisions that are reasonable and that most of us would approve of if given full context. That’s what I’m talking about, and what I think has been under threat recently.
I’m not saying deference isn’t a problem, just not the one I was talking about.
But it seems to me that in every instance that I’ve seen there has either been a good explanation or the failing has been at worst a) bad decisions made for good reasons, b) lapses in personal judgement, or c) genuine disagreements about which actions are worth doing.
I think you make a good point that many things are (a) or (b), which are relatively fine. And I believe (and maybe we agree) that EAs should still verify these things in sketchy looking situations (including the purchase of Wyntham Abbey).
But in the case of “c) genuine disagreements about which actions are worth doing”, it’s possible we disagree. I feel like definitionally this means we don’t believe other EAs are behaving well or representing our movement. In other words, “genuine disagreement about which actions are worth doing” sometimes is good cause to trust other people less.
I think you have valid reason to “distrust” EAs if you strongly disagree with the reasoning for the purchase of Wytham Abbey or for investing a lot in community building or for promoting longtermism. I strongly disagree with flat-earthers, and I would not “trust” a community based on evidence/reasoning that has a lot of flat-earthers.
I think at the end of the day, this discussion depends on your definition of “trust”. It probably comes down to vibes. And it sounds like you’re saying “even if you strongly disagree with someone, keep the positive vibes”, and what I’m saying is, “sometimes it’s okay to have negative vibes when you strongly disagree with someone.”
Well, this is what you get for using vague words like “trust” :)
I didn’t mean to talk abou “epistemic trust”/deference in the post. I don’t think that people should defer to “leadership” much at all (maybe a bit more to “experts”, who are not the same people).
That is very different to trusting them to behave well, represent our movement, and take decisions that are reasonable and that most of us would approve of if given full context. That’s what I’m talking about, and what I think has been under threat recently.
I’m not saying deference isn’t a problem, just not the one I was talking about.
Hi Michael,
Thank you for the clarification!
I think you make a good point that many things are (a) or (b), which are relatively fine. And I believe (and maybe we agree) that EAs should still verify these things in sketchy looking situations (including the purchase of Wyntham Abbey).
But in the case of “c) genuine disagreements about which actions are worth doing”, it’s possible we disagree. I feel like definitionally this means we don’t believe other EAs are behaving well or representing our movement. In other words, “genuine disagreement about which actions are worth doing” sometimes is good cause to trust other people less.
I think you have valid reason to “distrust” EAs if you strongly disagree with the reasoning for the purchase of Wytham Abbey or for investing a lot in community building or for promoting longtermism. I strongly disagree with flat-earthers, and I would not “trust” a community based on evidence/reasoning that has a lot of flat-earthers.
I think at the end of the day, this discussion depends on your definition of “trust”. It probably comes down to vibes. And it sounds like you’re saying “even if you strongly disagree with someone, keep the positive vibes”, and what I’m saying is, “sometimes it’s okay to have negative vibes when you strongly disagree with someone.”