-Though it doesn’t apply to the species highlighted , or the other small shoaling species that would probably be most productive, There are some species where we wouldn’t have to just worry about people eating a different species of fish, but also potentially farmed individuals of the same species.
I was generally agreeing until you compared it to hunting, which showed the major flaw, It’s inaccurate to model fisheries or regulated game populations like normal “wild-animals” It makes more sense to think of them as state owned livestock that the government makes a pretty penny selling,
is my states management plan ( 2008-2017)for ring-neck-pheasants, a non native species from east Asia that is known to lower populations of native American wildlife like bobwhite quail and prairie-chickens through competition, nest-parasitism, disease and direct conflict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_pheasant
-The plan calls for releasing hundreds of thousands of individuals annually,
-modifying habitat to encourage pheasant populations
-advising landowners on how to encourage pheasant populations
-financially support farmers for providing ideal pheasant habitat
-establish a hunting license for pheasants ( has been done)
support pheasant hunting
I chose this species because being nonnative and harming native wildlife like bobwhite, makes it more self evident this isn’t mere “conservation” , state governments make money selling hunting licenses , and so grow populations of “game”, by making habitats they use, suppressing predators, making fertility control illegal, and/or releasing captive bred individuals , and this is at the cost of native wildlife and ecosystems. Buying a hunting license is like buying a cow at a livestock auction, even if you save her, it supports all the wrong things and gives money to the wrong people.
And similar situations go on in terms of aquatic-life, with , economically important species being bred in large numbers to release for fishermen to catch,
Maybe I’ve misunderstood but If tradeable catch shares do function like hunting liscences (as a product the government is selling to the consumer) , It seems straightforwardly bad, because raising fish on farms and releasing them seems really bad.
Thanks for your thoughts. I’m somewhat familiar with these issues from my background in fisheries management and wildlife biology.
It seems to me that your concern is that what you could call the “indirect effects” (e.g. giving money to the wrong people, encouraging policies that harm other animals) might be worse than the “direct effects” (saving the lives of the specific animals). I think this is a valid concern, and somewhat similar to the risks I raised in my post.
In my experience (limited to a few developed countries), fisheries catch shares work a bit differently to how you’ve explained hunting licenses. In most cases, the government uses catch shares to limit how much fishing can happen—so catch shares are not so much a product that is sold to consumers, but rather a tool used to limit the amount of fish that the commercial industry can take.
In most cases, we would be buying the catch shares off of the commercial fishers who hold them. This would give money to those fishers, which might be used for harmful things (e.g. fishing in another fishery instead), and I list that as a concerning risk in my post. But I don’t think this would be as obviously bad as providing money to a hunting program.
I agree with your point about raising fish for release. This could plausibly be a bad thing in fisheries where fish are raised for release, although it’d be possible to do research to understand the size of this risk, given a particular fishery.
In that case , in which we are buying from the fisherman The catch shares, (which seems similar to carbon credits,?) I am much more sympathetic to this. And I think this sounds like a very promising potential cause.
-Though it doesn’t apply to the species highlighted , or the other small shoaling species that would probably be most productive, There are some species where we wouldn’t have to just worry about people eating a different species of fish, but also potentially farmed individuals of the same species.
I was generally agreeing until you compared it to hunting, which showed the major flaw, It’s inaccurate to model fisheries or regulated game populations like normal “wild-animals” It makes more sense to think of them as state owned livestock that the government makes a pretty penny selling,
to illustrate my point here, https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/Ring-NeckedPheasant/Documents/PA_Pheasant_Mgmt_Plan__Final.pdf ,
is my states management plan ( 2008-2017)for ring-neck-pheasants, a non native species from east Asia that is known to lower populations of native American wildlife like bobwhite quail and prairie-chickens through competition, nest-parasitism, disease and direct conflict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_pheasant
-The plan calls for releasing hundreds of thousands of individuals annually, -modifying habitat to encourage pheasant populations -advising landowners on how to encourage pheasant populations -financially support farmers for providing ideal pheasant habitat -establish a hunting license for pheasants ( has been done)
support pheasant hunting
I chose this species because being nonnative and harming native wildlife like bobwhite, makes it more self evident this isn’t mere “conservation” , state governments make money selling hunting licenses , and so grow populations of “game”, by making habitats they use, suppressing predators, making fertility control illegal, and/or releasing captive bred individuals , and this is at the cost of native wildlife and ecosystems. Buying a hunting license is like buying a cow at a livestock auction, even if you save her, it supports all the wrong things and gives money to the wrong people.
https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/4FSANaX3GvKHnTgbw/35-150-billion-fish-are-raised-in-captivity-to-be-released
And similar situations go on in terms of aquatic-life, with , economically important species being bred in large numbers to release for fishermen to catch,
Maybe I’ve misunderstood but If tradeable catch shares do function like hunting liscences (as a product the government is selling to the consumer) , It seems straightforwardly bad, because raising fish on farms and releasing them seems really bad.
Thanks for your thoughts. I’m somewhat familiar with these issues from my background in fisheries management and wildlife biology.
It seems to me that your concern is that what you could call the “indirect effects” (e.g. giving money to the wrong people, encouraging policies that harm other animals) might be worse than the “direct effects” (saving the lives of the specific animals). I think this is a valid concern, and somewhat similar to the risks I raised in my post.
In my experience (limited to a few developed countries), fisheries catch shares work a bit differently to how you’ve explained hunting licenses. In most cases, the government uses catch shares to limit how much fishing can happen—so catch shares are not so much a product that is sold to consumers, but rather a tool used to limit the amount of fish that the commercial industry can take.
In most cases, we would be buying the catch shares off of the commercial fishers who hold them. This would give money to those fishers, which might be used for harmful things (e.g. fishing in another fishery instead), and I list that as a concerning risk in my post. But I don’t think this would be as obviously bad as providing money to a hunting program.
I agree with your point about raising fish for release. This could plausibly be a bad thing in fisheries where fish are raised for release, although it’d be possible to do research to understand the size of this risk, given a particular fishery.
Thank-you for responding!
In that case , in which we are buying from the fisherman The catch shares, (which seems similar to carbon credits,?) I am much more sympathetic to this. And I think this sounds like a very promising potential cause.