Fishing alone, especially illegal and industrial, already had depleted more than 70% of species (which are being overfished or are on the verge of collapse), it destroys 50x more land annually than deforestation.
Where did you get 70% of (fished?[1]) species are depleted? Or do you mean in the past, but things might be better now? This seems much higher than related numbers I’m familiar with.
It seems that around 66% of stocks that are fished are fished sustainably vs 34% overfished, and 79% of catch by weight comes from sustainably fished stocks vs 21% from overfished (FAO, 2022, Figure 23,Ritchie & Roser, 2021–2024).
“on the verge of collapse” suggests they are likely to collapse, but that isn’t obvious, because it’s possible to maintain stocks in an overfished/overfishing equilibrium, or governments may intervene to restrict fishing (e.g. seasonal closures, total allowable catch) to protect against collapse when it gets closer. And even if/when there is a collapse, there can be recovery, e.g. like Peruvian anchoveta, which could be supported by government. Of course, recovery may not go well, e.g. NW Atlantic cod.
All of this is the result of particular kinds of fishing and management practices. Rather than outright bans, governments will just make fishing more sustainable, and then most of these concerns will no longer apply.
Not clear Michael what you mean y saying ’making fishing more sustainable = more fishing, can you elaborate? (Remembering I mention here to ban industrial fishing, not increasing its welfare, which for me is an oxymoron).
When there’s overfishing (high fishing pressure or harvest rate, as the biomass caught divided by current biomass), marginal reductions in fishing pressure allow overfished populations to recover, allowing more fish to be caught in the long run. I elaborate inSustainable fishing policy increases fishing, and demand reductions might, too. Of course, a total ban is a complete reduction, so should in fact reduce catch in the long run. But I don’t think bans are very politically feasible, at least not on a large scale, and instead you’re likely to get marginal reductions in fishing pressure, e.g. through total allowable catch or quotas. Furthermore, I’d guess even small local bans (marine protected areas) can sometimes allow for more fishing in the long run, by reducing fishing pressure on groups that migrate and will be fished elsewhere anyway.
Most species are probably not fished much at all.Only about half of the ocean area is fished. Many species in the same fisheries are not fished much or at all. Most of the oceanby depth, especially the mesopelagic zone and regions away from coasts, is almost entirely unfished.
I am at a conference at the moment, happy to respond when I leave the conference. What I would love to do is to have a session with you once you have an opportunity. I have been talking to organizations such as Faunalytics to have a deeper look into fishing and animal rights and it would be great to have someone like yourself onboard to work on this matter. Is it something you’d like to participate in?
Quick reply on one of the 70% data: sorry, I’ve made a confusion, as 70% (to be exact, it is 67%) is overfished in Brazil, not worldwide, which is in fact 34%. However, important to mention that the 60% of fish populations that are ‘fully exploited to its maximum yield’ globally actually means that it these exploited pop. have a much lower quantity of individuals than it originally used to have before exploitation (MSYs vary their limit of % of lower than original pop. per species and locations, however, they consistently are at a significant % lower than original pop. sizes). They’re still able to recover YoY, however a significant decrease in their populations is in fact changing the ecosystem balance, naturally.
Even if there are contradictory studies of some fish species growing x decreasing in studies if species are seen in isolation, I’d also encourage you to have a system’s thinking approach to this scenario, as studying animals in nature, you need to take the ecosystem context into view: a sudden change of populations of 1 species could generate growth in others, diminishment in others, but in a system’s view, this significant disruption changes the scope of the balance and interdependence of species of that particular ecosystem. In ecological terms, this is likely to result in a lower ecossystemic resilience to natural threats (in particular, climate change). I am aware, however, of the huge challenge of researching this ecological view empirically, therefore there is not so many studies taking all of these complex chains of causes and consequences to bear (it would be great to have more funding for such studies!) - but what already is a common agreement is that to protect areas from fishing is proved to increase the biodiversity of an ecosystem, and consequentially improve its resilience (and its ecossystemic role).
About the other requests for more info: I need time for this, but it may be even more productive to work as a group to distill all these data?
What we cannot deny is that this is a yet relatively overlooked and neglected area of debate, and this is surely one of the areas of more direct impact of human influence on lives, suffering and ecosystem interference and collapse.
We should not ignore it for the sake of ambiguous data or moral questionings, but see this as hugely important area of opportunity to investigate further. Let’s continue the conversation through pvt message?
On point 5
Where did you get 70% of (fished?[1]) species are depleted? Or do you mean in the past, but things might be better now? This seems much higher than related numbers I’m familiar with.
It seems that around 66% of stocks that are fished are fished sustainably vs 34% overfished, and 79% of catch by weight comes from sustainably fished stocks vs 21% from overfished (FAO, 2022, Figure 23, Ritchie & Roser, 2021–2024).
“on the verge of collapse” suggests they are likely to collapse, but that isn’t obvious, because it’s possible to maintain stocks in an overfished/overfishing equilibrium, or governments may intervene to restrict fishing (e.g. seasonal closures, total allowable catch) to protect against collapse when it gets closer. And even if/when there is a collapse, there can be recovery, e.g. like Peruvian anchoveta, which could be supported by government. Of course, recovery may not go well, e.g. NW Atlantic cod.
By land destroyed by fishing, I assume you mean bottom trawling/dredging. Unlike deforestation, this is mostly the same land being affected each year, and recovery could be faster. Governments are also likely to eventually limit bottom trawling separately from fishing as a whole, because it’s much less sustainable.
All of this is the result of particular kinds of fishing and management practices. Rather than outright bans, governments will just make fishing more sustainable, and then most of these concerns will no longer apply.
When there’s overfishing (high fishing pressure or harvest rate, as the biomass caught divided by current biomass), marginal reductions in fishing pressure allow overfished populations to recover, allowing more fish to be caught in the long run. I elaborate in Sustainable fishing policy increases fishing, and demand reductions might, too. Of course, a total ban is a complete reduction, so should in fact reduce catch in the long run. But I don’t think bans are very politically feasible, at least not on a large scale, and instead you’re likely to get marginal reductions in fishing pressure, e.g. through total allowable catch or quotas. Furthermore, I’d guess even small local bans (marine protected areas) can sometimes allow for more fishing in the long run, by reducing fishing pressure on groups that migrate and will be fished elsewhere anyway.
Most species are probably not fished much at all. Only about half of the ocean area is fished. Many species in the same fisheries are not fished much or at all. Most of the ocean by depth, especially the mesopelagic zone and regions away from coasts, is almost entirely unfished.
Hello @MichaelStJules,
I am at a conference at the moment, happy to respond when I leave the conference. What I would love to do is to have a session with you once you have an opportunity. I have been talking to organizations such as Faunalytics to have a deeper look into fishing and animal rights and it would be great to have someone like yourself onboard to work on this matter. Is it something you’d like to participate in?
Quick reply on one of the 70% data: sorry, I’ve made a confusion, as 70% (to be exact, it is 67%) is overfished in Brazil, not worldwide, which is in fact 34%. However, important to mention that the 60% of fish populations that are ‘fully exploited to its maximum yield’ globally actually means that it these exploited pop. have a much lower quantity of individuals than it originally used to have before exploitation (MSYs vary their limit of % of lower than original pop. per species and locations, however, they consistently are at a significant % lower than original pop. sizes). They’re still able to recover YoY, however a significant decrease in their populations is in fact changing the ecosystem balance, naturally.
Even if there are contradictory studies of some fish species growing x decreasing in studies if species are seen in isolation, I’d also encourage you to have a system’s thinking approach to this scenario, as studying animals in nature, you need to take the ecosystem context into view: a sudden change of populations of 1 species could generate growth in others, diminishment in others, but in a system’s view, this significant disruption changes the scope of the balance and interdependence of species of that particular ecosystem. In ecological terms, this is likely to result in a lower ecossystemic resilience to natural threats (in particular, climate change). I am aware, however, of the huge challenge of researching this ecological view empirically, therefore there is not so many studies taking all of these complex chains of causes and consequences to bear (it would be great to have more funding for such studies!) - but what already is a common agreement is that to protect areas from fishing is proved to increase the biodiversity of an ecosystem, and consequentially improve its resilience (and its ecossystemic role).
About the other requests for more info: I need time for this, but it may be even more productive to work as a group to distill all these data?
What we cannot deny is that this is a yet relatively overlooked and neglected area of debate, and this is surely one of the areas of more direct impact of human influence on lives, suffering and ecosystem interference and collapse.
We should not ignore it for the sake of ambiguous data or moral questionings, but see this as hugely important area of opportunity to investigate further. Let’s continue the conversation through pvt message?