Completing a Masters degree in Applied Economics.
President of EA Perth and University of Western Australiaās EA club.
jordanvešø
Karma: 46
Wow, thank you for this. Youāre far more across this topic than I am, haha.
As for the effects of family planning on population levels, itās interesting that thereās such wide disagreement, although maybe itās just that the Collinsā are mistaken (wouldnāt shock me). Iād have to dig into the underlying research.
I distrust self-reports as a reliable guide in this case due to various biases (discussed by Kahneman), and my thoughts on that have been much better expressed in chapter 4 of the human predicament. Iāll need to revisit chapter 9 of WWOTF and see how their arguments and evidence compare. I would agree that an absence of positive lives (wherever the right line is) is somewhat bad, and should be a factor in decision making, although I am not a totalist or even a consequentialist (for example, I think the threshold for a live worth starting is quite above a life worth continuing). I agree that for totalists, this issue matters a lot, and for anyone uncertain about population ethics, it matters somewhat.
To clarify for certain readers, I think that the right of the woman to family planning comes first and shouldnāt be restricted. I think that foregone positive lives only has implications for prioritising among our positive obligations, not negative rights or liberties. Iām sure you agree.
I remember the Collinsā being emphatically pro abortion and contraception to increase the cultural prestige and frequency of having childrenāso the poster couple of population=good seems to think contraception and abortion access does not reduce the population, all things considered. Iām not sure if the lives of unwanted children are worth starting, but I should flag that Iām generally pessimistic about which lives are worth starting.
Edit: Iām not familiar with the culture of Nigeria. My intuitions about this developed in a western context and maybe there are relevant differences in Nigeria.
Iāve heard positive things about how to be perfect from friends. Schur wrote the foreword to the life you can save, but the way he used the most good you can do in the good place was pretty annoying. The character apparently inspired by it lives in the woods off grid drinking rainwater doing the least good you can do.
Anyway, I think that justice by michael sandel is a brilliant introduction to ethics (I studied ethics in my philosophy undergrad). Itās focused on many real-world applied cases to explore principles, arguments, theories, thinkers, etc. The thesis of the book is that we cannot avoid engaging in value theory when discussing real world dilemmas or politics, but this engagement can be done well or poorly.
I love that you shared this. Iāve just finished reading it, youāve done a fantastic job. Thank you for so clearly distilling the problems with such widespread objections. My highlights were the revolutionaryās dilemma, EA as the minimisation of abandonment, the reputational threat that EA poses to traditional altruists, and the political critique.
Francione did this in his 2007 article āWeāre all Michael Vickā. He calls it moral schizophrenia. Singer calls it secondary speciesism: prioritising some non-human animals over others. I donāt know if anyone has made a habit of it, I think itās a good idea. Iād be interested to see someone try to measure the effects this kind of argument has on the audience.
I am a pretty committed vegan advocate, and have been for over six years ever since I started engaging with animal ethics.
I wanted to say that I share your frustrations exactly, and that solider veganism has been driving me up the wall ever since I joined the vegan community. Seeking truth and justice is what led me to veganism in the first place. It disgusts me when solider vegans seem to believe that veganism cannot survive truth-seeking. There are very obvious trade-offs, compromises, constraints, inconveniences, annoyances, costs, learning curves and sacrifices involved in veganism. An infinite number of ideological assurances and hand waving wonāt stop a new vegan from confronting them in the real world. As for persuasionā¦ the truth is enough. People will either hear about these trade-offs from vegans or from anti-vegans, who could seem more truth-seeking by contrast.
I go back and forth between thinking that this problem is especially bad in vegan advocacy, and thinking itās just sturgeonās lawāwhere 90% of everything is crap, including communities such as vegan advocates, with no exception for EAs. Iād like to know others thoughts about this.
I can see that youāve been getting a lot of flak for your posts on veganism, including that they might have negative consequences. My best guess is that they would have overwhelmingly positive consequences for farmed animals. Youāve presented pro-vegan arguments in their most informed and defensible version. To the extent that people identify the dominant naive arguments as being āthe case for veganismā, they will be less persuaded to adopt veganism, their veganism will be at high risk of being unsustainable, and their views on veganism will be vulnerable to basic factual challenges. This naive culture will also pollute the data on the epidemiology of veganism, making veganism look worse than it should be.
If you think it would be beneficial to how vegan advocates receive your work, I would be happy for you to add to your posts that youāve received support from extremely grateful vegan advocates, who are absolutely fed up with naive/āsoldier veganism.
Thank you for writing this book, Iām looking forward to reading it. How does it contrast with jacy reeseās the end of animal farming? I notice that itās focused on america, but would you still recommend it for advocates in other countries?
For university group organisers like myself with more limited personal capacity and a limited executive team, Iāll also encourage people to consider a minimalist version of this. Iāve been running weekly social lunches at a cafe every week that are open to everyone interested in the club. The only ongoing effort it requires of me is to turn up, and I always enjoy the discussions. I have plans to scale up to a maximalist version of this once the capacity of the executive team increases.