I strong-up-voted this for the effort to clarify things while the post is no longer on the frontpage.
I think I still have reservations. You tried to point out the story that points to historical evidence about what worked and what did not. But meta discussions about what kind of work motivates (though I believe they don’t talk about misleading) advocates being effective and sustainable (not burning out) is a constant topic that goes on in pretty much all annual meetings/retreats of FAW advocacy groups. Street advocacy/education advocacy, or just any moral advocacy that is not working, is being discussed as a reason to move away BOTH because of direct effectiveness and how much we can stay motivated. And the reverse is said for what’s working. And even if those were mentioned, I don’t think it is possible that each of us, as individuals, wasn’t affected by such motivation/frustrations in choosing our career, for instance, I was.
Also, as a side story, I heard that people left some FAW-related orgs for overrepresenting/overmotivating, and I tend to agree with them about their judgment. So maybe there is actually some active misleading.
So in a sense, “speculative argument about how we might inspire or mislead future advocates” IS happening, at least the “inspire” part (and I suspect that the misleading part is also there, just not framed this way).
“good, lasting value change is more likely when it’s convenient” is a much better-grounded claim than “good, lasting value change is more likely when advocates have historical examples of entirely morality-driven change”; the latter claim seems entirely speculative,
I think you kind of changed the “latter argument” a bit here from what we were discussing before. Copying things over, it was A:”economic changes that drive moral progress will inspire and inform future advocates to take pragmatic approaches that actually work well rather than engaging in endless but ineffective moral grandstanding;”
And B: “always waiting for moral progress might mislead us to think we have less obligation to improve economic incentives”
And my point is that, within the FAW and altpro movements, A is mentioned, often as a point for advocacy sustainability and self-care.
B is also mentioned, but much less than A (A is a recurring theme in retreats, I literally heard it just last week), as a criticism of abolitionist vegans who often spend a big chunk of their time criticizing us (us as in the FAW/altpro movement).
my point is that, within the FAW and altpro movements, A is mentioned
Oh interesting, I wasn’t aware this point came up much. Taking your word for it, I agree then that (A) shouldn’t get more weight than (B) (except insofar as we have separate, non-speculative reasons to be more bullish about economic interventions).
I think you kind of changed the “latter argument” a bit here from what we were discussing before.
Sorry for the confusion—I was trying to say that alt-pro advocates often have an argument that’s different (and better-grounded) than (A) and (B).
In other words, my current view is that (A) and (B) roughly “cancel out” due to being similarly speculative, while the separate view that “good, lasting value change is more likely when it’s convenient” is better-grounded than its opposite.
Voted agree! I think we are gaining understanding, and maybe converging on our views a bit.
Also, I want to mention that I have shifted quite a bit from my worry I wrote in this post, so much that I actually updated some parts of it. My high level takeaway now is that we SHOULD keep up, probably speed up alt-pro (maybe particularly CM), but at roughly the point that alt-pro replaced 70-80% of factory farming, we should seriously consider putting much more effort (than now) on moral and legal advocacy.
I strong-up-voted this for the effort to clarify things while the post is no longer on the frontpage.
I think I still have reservations. You tried to point out the story that points to historical evidence about what worked and what did not. But meta discussions about what kind of work motivates (though I believe they don’t talk about misleading) advocates being effective and sustainable (not burning out) is a constant topic that goes on in pretty much all annual meetings/retreats of FAW advocacy groups. Street advocacy/education advocacy, or just any moral advocacy that is not working, is being discussed as a reason to move away BOTH because of direct effectiveness and how much we can stay motivated. And the reverse is said for what’s working. And even if those were mentioned, I don’t think it is possible that each of us, as individuals, wasn’t affected by such motivation/frustrations in choosing our career, for instance, I was.
Also, as a side story, I heard that people left some FAW-related orgs for overrepresenting/overmotivating, and I tend to agree with them about their judgment. So maybe there is actually some active misleading.
So in a sense, “speculative argument about how we might inspire or mislead future advocates” IS happening, at least the “inspire” part (and I suspect that the misleading part is also there, just not framed this way).
I think you kind of changed the “latter argument” a bit here from what we were discussing before. Copying things over, it was A:”economic changes that drive moral progress will inspire and inform future advocates to take pragmatic approaches that actually work well rather than engaging in endless but ineffective moral grandstanding;”
And B: “always waiting for moral progress might mislead us to think we have less obligation to improve economic incentives”
And my point is that, within the FAW and altpro movements, A is mentioned, often as a point for advocacy sustainability and self-care.
B is also mentioned, but much less than A (A is a recurring theme in retreats, I literally heard it just last week), as a criticism of abolitionist vegans who often spend a big chunk of their time criticizing us (us as in the FAW/altpro movement).
Oh interesting, I wasn’t aware this point came up much. Taking your word for it, I agree then that (A) shouldn’t get more weight than (B) (except insofar as we have separate, non-speculative reasons to be more bullish about economic interventions).
Sorry for the confusion—I was trying to say that alt-pro advocates often have an argument that’s different (and better-grounded) than (A) and (B).
In other words, my current view is that (A) and (B) roughly “cancel out” due to being similarly speculative, while the separate view that “good, lasting value change is more likely when it’s convenient” is better-grounded than its opposite.
Voted agree! I think we are gaining understanding, and maybe converging on our views a bit.
Also, I want to mention that I have shifted quite a bit from my worry I wrote in this post, so much that I actually updated some parts of it. My high level takeaway now is that we SHOULD keep up, probably speed up alt-pro (maybe particularly CM), but at roughly the point that alt-pro replaced 70-80% of factory farming, we should seriously consider putting much more effort (than now) on moral and legal advocacy.
Thank you everyone for the discussion!