I was not at Manifest. And I’d like to be very clear that I totally respect Manifest’s right to host Hanania and make him a speaker.
I disagree with the decision and I would never do such a thing if I were King of Manifest, but I’m not King of Manifest and I am not trying to control anything about it. Notably, Manifest came and went, Hanania was there just fine and nothing happened, and all I did was exercise my right to not go and to complain about it to some friends. At no point did I ever do anything to attempt to cancel Manifest.
But since people took the conversation here to the EA Forum which I like and are trying to tell people that Hanania is fine actually, I’m now also going to complain about it here on my Forum.
And publicly say you’re not working with them anymore because of who they associate with?
That isn’t trying to control your environment.
That’s boycotting and encouraging others to do that same.
This is not just trying to control Manifund, but all other EA orgs that you might work with. They will know that Peter Wildeford will stop working with them if they associate with people that Peter disagrees with.
It is using shunning and boycotting as an attempt to control people’s behavior in environments you’re not even a part of.
To be clear, I haven’t cut ties with anyone other than Manifold (and Hanania). Manifold is a very voluntary use of my non-professional time and I found the community to be exhausting. I have a right to decline to participate there, just as much as you have a right to participate there. There’s nothing controlling about this.
If you had simply stopped using Manifold privately and it had nothing to do with who they associate, that’s one thing.
But if you 1) publicly stop 2) because of who they associate with and 3) imply that you’ll do that to others who associate with the “wrong” people (see quote below), then that’s boycotting and trying to encourage other people to boycott and telling everybody who’s watching that you’ll boycott them too if they associate with the wrong people.
Ergo, trying to control who people can hang out with.
I’m fine to learn that Manifold is not for me. It’s sad, but I’ll move on. It would be really sad to learn that EA or the EA Forum is not for me.
Imagine I go to a conference, and a guy poops himself deliberately on stage as performance art. It smells a lot and is very unpleasant and I have a sensitive nose.
I announce, publically, that “I don’t like it when deliberately people poop themself on stage. If other places have deliberate pants pooping, I won’t go to them”.
I am 1.) publically stopping going, 2) because of who they associate with (pants poopers) and 3) implying I’ll do that to other people who associate with the same group (pants poopers).
Ergo, according to your logic, I am boycotting, encouraging others to boycott, and “trying to control who people can hang out with”, even if, yknow, I just don’t want to go to conferences where I don’t smell poop.
I have free association, as does everyone else. I don’t like pants shitters, and I don’t like scientific racists (who are on about the same level of odiousness), and I’m free to not host them or hang around them if I want to.
The more relevant comparison would be that if you went to said conference, somebody pooped, and then you decided to stop doing business with an unrelated arm of the organization that has nothing to do with conferences and pooping.
Or it would be like not going to a conference, where one of the speakers at a previous conference had done a pooping thing, and then you decided that you would publicly say you were not doing business with that company again. And that you will not do business with anybody who hosts a pooping performance. That pooping performances are vile and you want nothing to do with them, no matter how indirect.
You did not attend the conference. There was no pooping done at the conference. There had just been pooping at a previous conference. And the business you are doing with them has nothing to do with pooping, and you have never interacted with anybody who did any pooping performance.
I was not at Manifest. And I’d like to be very clear that I totally respect Manifest’s right to host Hanania and make him a speaker.
I disagree with the decision and I would never do such a thing if I were King of Manifest, but I’m not King of Manifest and I am not trying to control anything about it. Notably, Manifest came and went, Hanania was there just fine and nothing happened, and all I did was exercise my right to not go and to complain about it to some friends. At no point did I ever do anything to attempt to cancel Manifest.
But since people took the conversation here to the EA Forum which I like and are trying to tell people that Hanania is fine actually, I’m now also going to complain about it here on my Forum.
But why stop making predictions on Manifold?
And publicly say you’re not working with them anymore because of who they associate with?
That isn’t trying to control your environment.
That’s boycotting and encouraging others to do that same.
This is not just trying to control Manifund, but all other EA orgs that you might work with. They will know that Peter Wildeford will stop working with them if they associate with people that Peter disagrees with.
It is using shunning and boycotting as an attempt to control people’s behavior in environments you’re not even a part of.
To be clear, I haven’t cut ties with anyone other than Manifold (and Hanania). Manifold is a very voluntary use of my non-professional time and I found the community to be exhausting. I have a right to decline to participate there, just as much as you have a right to participate there. There’s nothing controlling about this.
If you had simply stopped using Manifold privately and it had nothing to do with who they associate, that’s one thing.
But if you 1) publicly stop 2) because of who they associate with and 3) imply that you’ll do that to others who associate with the “wrong” people (see quote below), then that’s boycotting and trying to encourage other people to boycott and telling everybody who’s watching that you’ll boycott them too if they associate with the wrong people.
Ergo, trying to control who people can hang out with.
Imagine I go to a conference, and a guy poops himself deliberately on stage as performance art. It smells a lot and is very unpleasant and I have a sensitive nose.
I announce, publically, that “I don’t like it when deliberately people poop themself on stage. If other places have deliberate pants pooping, I won’t go to them”.
I am 1.) publically stopping going, 2) because of who they associate with (pants poopers) and 3) implying I’ll do that to other people who associate with the same group (pants poopers).
Ergo, according to your logic, I am boycotting, encouraging others to boycott, and “trying to control who people can hang out with”, even if, yknow, I just don’t want to go to conferences where I don’t smell poop.
I have free association, as does everyone else. I don’t like pants shitters, and I don’t like scientific racists (who are on about the same level of odiousness), and I’m free to not host them or hang around them if I want to.
The more relevant comparison would be that if you went to said conference, somebody pooped, and then you decided to stop doing business with an unrelated arm of the organization that has nothing to do with conferences and pooping.
Or it would be like not going to a conference, where one of the speakers at a previous conference had done a pooping thing, and then you decided that you would publicly say you were not doing business with that company again. And that you will not do business with anybody who hosts a pooping performance. That pooping performances are vile and you want nothing to do with them, no matter how indirect.
You did not attend the conference. There was no pooping done at the conference. There had just been pooping at a previous conference. And the business you are doing with them has nothing to do with pooping, and you have never interacted with anybody who did any pooping performance.