You’re absolutely correct on the details. Most people going SAD → vegan increase health, because they generally trade cost or convenience.[1]
Most people[2] wouldn’t pay $N or $M for P without Q, as most people who don’t value Q don’t make the trade. I would not expect any completely amoral Americans to be vegan. My veganism is an argument based on Q, not for the irrelevance of N/M or the magnitude of P. I would expect both N & M to decrease as percent vegans in the local population increase.
However, while vegan being > SAD on health (even without mentioning N/M) is not relevant to this discussion, correctly saying “hey a balanced vegan diet won’t make you waste away” is still shocking news to many people. Therefore noting that there is a P is very useful with many non-vegans. If any EA people think there is no N/M, I think this is possibly the only U.S. subculture where that’s true.[3]
Also, to take a step toward the meta: “good health” and “animal suffering” are [sometimes] sacred values, where time/$ aren’t. So for whom those are sacred values, this is noting that you can have both sacred values by trading against only non-sacred values. Hopefully this is irrelevant to EA/LW people, but it is extremely relevant in the “real world”.
In wealthy urban areas with higher % vegans, the trade-off is usually cost (eating out at vegan restaurants, etc.). In areas that are small with few vegans, the trade-off is convenience (I started cooking more; there is only one vegan restaurant near me that is too far & expensive to regularly visit).
Sorry for my clumsy wording & many footnotes. What I’m trying to say is that in the equation where you trade $N and $M for P and Q, I think people (outside maybe EA) systematically overcalculate N and M and undercalculate P, even before accounting for Q, since they think being vegan is harder than it actually is and leads to a negative P value, which is usually false.
I still don’t think they’d make the trade without Q, but in an effort to “counter-balance” Q people seem to (unconsciously?) distort N, M, and P.
My veganism is an argument based on Q, not for the irrelevance of N/M or the magnitude of P.
But this discussion is about N, M, and P. There have been many discussions of Q, I have already acknowledged Q>0, quantifying Q is outside of scope of the this post. Over on LW I deleted attempts to argue Q=0 because it was out of scope. When N, M, and P are quantified people can combine all the information to argue and make decisions, but getting all 4 pieces quantified is a necessary step.
I fully agree with all of the above. From the first message of this thread I noted that I agreed with the cruxes of the post. I agree that N, M, and P are important and we should gather & disseminate better information on them.
To my understanding, in futher posts we’ve been discussing how much the trade-offs matter, to what extent they’ve been suppressed, and whether some sub-fields have trade-offs at all (e.g. leather).
I don’t think it’s possible to have a discussion without any shadow of Q, because ultimately without Q there’s not even a discussion (beyond a 1-page of current research on one lifestyle choice among many). Your “why is this so hard to talk about” section is answered mostly with Q itself.
That being said, I should have worked harder to stay on topic. I apologize if my replies here have been unhelpful to this discussion.
At the very least, I am still thankful for your thoughtful responses, as I have found this thread both interesting and useful.
You’re absolutely correct on the details. Most people going SAD → vegan increase health, because they generally trade cost or convenience.[1]
Most people[2] wouldn’t pay $N or $M for P without Q, as most people who don’t value Q don’t make the trade. I would not expect any completely amoral Americans to be vegan. My veganism is an argument based on Q, not for the irrelevance of N/M or the magnitude of P. I would expect both N & M to decrease as percent vegans in the local population increase.
However, while vegan being > SAD on health (even without mentioning N/M) is not relevant to this discussion, correctly saying “hey a balanced vegan diet won’t make you waste away” is still shocking news to many people. Therefore noting that there is a P is very useful with many non-vegans. If any EA people think there is no N/M, I think this is possibly the only U.S. subculture where that’s true.[3]
Also, to take a step toward the meta: “good health” and “animal suffering” are [sometimes] sacred values, where time/$ aren’t. So for whom those are sacred values, this is noting that you can have both sacred values by trading against only non-sacred values. Hopefully this is irrelevant to EA/LW people, but it is extremely relevant in the “real world”.
In wealthy urban areas with higher % vegans, the trade-off is usually cost (eating out at vegan restaurants, etc.). In areas that are small with few vegans, the trade-off is convenience (I started cooking more; there is only one vegan restaurant near me that is too far & expensive to regularly visit).
In regular meat-heavy U.S. culture. YMMV in specific subcultures.
Sorry for my clumsy wording & many footnotes. What I’m trying to say is that in the equation where you trade $N and $M for P and Q, I think people (outside maybe EA) systematically overcalculate N and M and undercalculate P, even before accounting for Q, since they think being vegan is harder than it actually is and leads to a negative P value, which is usually false.
I still don’t think they’d make the trade without Q, but in an effort to “counter-balance” Q people seem to (unconsciously?) distort N, M, and P.
But this discussion is about N, M, and P. There have been many discussions of Q, I have already acknowledged Q>0, quantifying Q is outside of scope of the this post. Over on LW I deleted attempts to argue Q=0 because it was out of scope. When N, M, and P are quantified people can combine all the information to argue and make decisions, but getting all 4 pieces quantified is a necessary step.
I fully agree with all of the above. From the first message of this thread I noted that I agreed with the cruxes of the post. I agree that N, M, and P are important and we should gather & disseminate better information on them.
To my understanding, in futher posts we’ve been discussing how much the trade-offs matter, to what extent they’ve been suppressed, and whether some sub-fields have trade-offs at all (e.g. leather).
I don’t think it’s possible to have a discussion without any shadow of Q, because ultimately without Q there’s not even a discussion (beyond a 1-page of current research on one lifestyle choice among many). Your “why is this so hard to talk about” section is answered mostly with Q itself.
That being said, I should have worked harder to stay on topic. I apologize if my replies here have been unhelpful to this discussion.
At the very least, I am still thankful for your thoughtful responses, as I have found this thread both interesting and useful.