I agree that it’s worth saying something about sexual behaviour. Here are my broad thoughts:
I am sad about women having bad experiences, I think about it a lot
I want to be accurate in communication
I think it’s easy to reduce harms a lot without reducing benefits
Firstly, I’m sad about the current situation. Seems like too many women in EA have bad experiences. There is a discussion about what happens in other communities or tradeoffs. But first it’s really sad.
More than this, it seems worth dwelling on what it *feels* like. I guess for many it’s fine. But for some it can be exhausting or sad or uncomfortable. Women in EA complain to me about their treatment as women at lot, men much less. Seems notable.
But I don’t know what norms should be. I don’t know what’s best for EA women, for EA in general, for the world in general. In short, I don’t know how to optimise norms.
But harms seem easier to understand. It does seem to me there are some low cost, high benefit improvements. Particularly in people who have patterns of upsetting women.
Personally, I have really upset 2 or 3 women in EA around romance. I’ve said or done things that have left them sad for months. And I don’t think this is okay.
To them, I am sorry.
How do they feel? Well I sense, really sad. We’re not talking Time magazine stuff here, but I think they felt belittled, disrespected, judged and, briefly, unsafe. I don’t want anyone to feel like this, let alone because of me.
And compared to their suffering, and my sadness at it, it just seems pretty cheap to change my behaviour. To go on dates with a smaller group of people in EA, to create patterns to avoid situations I handle poorly, to spend time imagining women’s lives.
So I’m not gonna give a blanket pronouncement or say we are the worst. But personally, I am pretty flawed and I would prefer to change rather than hurt other people. And if you see that pattern in your life then I suggest taking real, actual steps.
I’d suggest you ask yourself. “Are there any women who, as a result of my actions in the last 2 years are seething or deeply upset.”
For most people the answer is no. Like seriously, the answer can be “no, you’re fine”. But if it’s yes, women are people right? Do you really believe that there aren’t some improvements possible here?
Some suggestions to yesses:
Talk to a trusted friend. How do they think you do here?
Imagine how much you would do to avoid the last woman being upset. Spend at least that much time avoiding the next woman being upset
I dislike the tribal nature of this discussion, that on some level it feels culture war-ey. So again, I don’t think this for everyone, but it is for me
But I really would recommend going to quality sex and relationship courses. I went to one run by a tantra group and I think it just made me a lot kinder and helped me reduce risks
Talk to women you’ve dated. How did they feel?
If you struggle with empathy with women, perhaps start with empathy for me. Trust me, you don’t want to feel like this. It’s horrible to have people who are upset as a result of my actions.
Most of all, I would recommend building empathy. I wish I had sat down and just written how the women I fancied felt, even for 5 minutes. And talked it over with a friend.
Take an interest in the mental lives of people you care about.
So I guess, the thing I could say was “If you continue patterns of romantic behaviour that frequently upset women that you could easily make less risky then I’ll be really upset with you and sad” as, if I were to continue I’d be so angry at myself.
Romance is not without risk—I don’t think this is a purely harm reducing question (though I could move to that opinion). But I think it’s possible to just reduce risks a lot while maintaining benefit. And if I have the option to do that and I choose not to, that’s basically my definition of bad.
Some thoughts on: https://twitter.com/FreshMangoLassi/status/1628825657261146121?s=20
I agree that it’s worth saying something about sexual behaviour. Here are my broad thoughts:
I am sad about women having bad experiences, I think about it a lot
I want to be accurate in communication
I think it’s easy to reduce harms a lot without reducing benefits
Firstly, I’m sad about the current situation. Seems like too many women in EA have bad experiences. There is a discussion about what happens in other communities or tradeoffs. But first it’s really sad.
More than this, it seems worth dwelling on what it *feels* like. I guess for many it’s fine. But for some it can be exhausting or sad or uncomfortable. Women in EA complain to me about their treatment as women at lot, men much less. Seems notable.
But I don’t know what norms should be. I don’t know what’s best for EA women, for EA in general, for the world in general. In short, I don’t know how to optimise norms.
But harms seem easier to understand. It does seem to me there are some low cost, high benefit improvements. Particularly in people who have patterns of upsetting women.
Personally, I have really upset 2 or 3 women in EA around romance. I’ve said or done things that have left them sad for months. And I don’t think this is okay.
To them, I am sorry.
How do they feel? Well I sense, really sad. We’re not talking Time magazine stuff here, but I think they felt belittled, disrespected, judged and, briefly, unsafe. I don’t want anyone to feel like this, let alone because of me.
And compared to their suffering, and my sadness at it, it just seems pretty cheap to change my behaviour. To go on dates with a smaller group of people in EA, to create patterns to avoid situations I handle poorly, to spend time imagining women’s lives.
So I’m not gonna give a blanket pronouncement or say we are the worst. But personally, I am pretty flawed and I would prefer to change rather than hurt other people. And if you see that pattern in your life then I suggest taking real, actual steps.
I’d suggest you ask yourself. “Are there any women who, as a result of my actions in the last 2 years are seething or deeply upset.”
For most people the answer is no. Like seriously, the answer can be “no, you’re fine”. But if it’s yes, women are people right? Do you really believe that there aren’t some improvements possible here?
Some suggestions to yesses:
Talk to a trusted friend. How do they think you do here?
Imagine how much you would do to avoid the last woman being upset. Spend at least that much time avoiding the next woman being upset
I dislike the tribal nature of this discussion, that on some level it feels culture war-ey. So again, I don’t think this for everyone, but it is for me
But I really would recommend going to quality sex and relationship courses. I went to one run by a tantra group and I think it just made me a lot kinder and helped me reduce risks
Talk to women you’ve dated. How did they feel?
If you struggle with empathy with women, perhaps start with empathy for me. Trust me, you don’t want to feel like this. It’s horrible to have people who are upset as a result of my actions.
Most of all, I would recommend building empathy. I wish I had sat down and just written how the women I fancied felt, even for 5 minutes. And talked it over with a friend.
Take an interest in the mental lives of people you care about.
So I guess, the thing I could say was “If you continue patterns of romantic behaviour that frequently upset women that you could easily make less risky then I’ll be really upset with you and sad” as, if I were to continue I’d be so angry at myself.
Romance is not without risk—I don’t think this is a purely harm reducing question (though I could move to that opinion). But I think it’s possible to just reduce risks a lot while maintaining benefit. And if I have the option to do that and I choose not to, that’s basically my definition of bad.