Thank you Milena for writing this. Let’s not forget the painful reality of the victims. The fact that their anonymity prevents them from getting the personal support of many only exacerbates the need for our solidarity with them.
I agree that the women affected are what this is primarily about. But there’s also an issue with not wanting to ascribe to anyone how we think they likely feel, without knowing much about them. Like, maybe at least some of the women who had negative experiences have nuanced feelings that aren’t best described as “I feel bad/invalidated whenever I see someone say positive things about Owen, even if they take care to not thereby downplay that the things he did weren’t acceptable.” Maybe some feel things like, “this stuff was messed up and really needed to be dealt with, and it sucks that it took so long/seemed like initially it wasn’t going to be dealt with, but it seems like things are developing in a good direction now.” Or maybe not! Maybe they’re still super upset and wish that Owen never re-enter the community again. That would be their right and seems understandable, too. In any case, the way I see it, we don’t know at this point (at least I don’t), and while I agree that it’s important to create encouraging incentives so people will be likely to report future instances of misconduct, I don’t think this requires a policy of “avoid at all costs saying things that might make someone who was affected uncomfortable.” (In fact, there’s also a risk of making people less likely to report uncomfortable experiences if they worry that there’ll be a community overreaction. That’s not the first thing I’d worry about, to be clear; I’m just pointing out that this could happen/be someone’s reason to be hesitant about speaking up about something.) Personally, the message I find most important is something like: I want us to take seriously that it’s unacceptable for people to predictably be at risk to have bad experiences like that in the EA community, and the community/Community Health takes this seriously and takes appropriate action.
I expressed support of another person’s comment that contained many positive points about Owen. I hope that no one feels like this means I’m “on Owen’s side” rather than on the side of the people who brought up these complaints. Owen seems to largely agree about the facts of what happened, and he seems genuinely committed to making sure similar stuff doesn’t happen again, plus he accepted the consequences (stepping down, two-year ban). These features of the situation IMO make it possible to not have to view this as “either you support the victims, or you can say a redeeming thing or two about Owen.”
This option of “not thinking of the situation as one where it’s about picking sides” isn’t always available. If a person accused of causing harm goes DARVO and accuses the alleged victims to be malefactors in return who make up false stories, then one is forced to either side with the alleged victims, or with the accused. Similarly, sometimes someone does something that’s immediately strong evidence that they are operating without even a desire to respect others (Milena Cenzler’s comment originally contained a hyperlink to the case of Brock Turner, who sexually assaulted an unconscious woman, as an example of how comments by supporters can sometimes be re-traumatizing to the victims). In those cases, it also seems to me like one can’t say much that’s redeeming about the person who caused harm without this being disrespectful towards the victims, both because of the severity of what they faced and because there’s not much redeeming you can say about someone who even lacks a basic desire/intent to respect others. But that sort of case has very different features from “confessed feeling attracted out of scrupulosity and misguided desire to get moral absolution from the people one is attracted to for not having to feel bad about the attraction.” It’s a very different thing. (Edit) Lastly, I guess sometimes someone can be a skilled manipulator and seem remorseful and accept consequences but downplay the extent of the harm and downplay their “bad character.” If Owen were like that and people who said positive things about him just fell victim to his charm, that could also be invalidating for the people who were harmed. I don’t think that’s the case, but this would be another situation we want to try to avoid, so I feel like the people who say positive things about Owen have a responsibility to consider the possibility “am I being manipulated?.”
Thanks for this comment. I think I agree with a lot of what you say, and wanted to clarify that I am not saying people should pick sides. I just wanted to point out the imbalance of total personal support expressed for each “side”, without implying that you can’t show support for both.
Thank you Milena for writing this. Let’s not forget the painful reality of the victims. The fact that their anonymity prevents them from getting the personal support of many only exacerbates the need for our solidarity with them.
I agree that the women affected are what this is primarily about. But there’s also an issue with not wanting to ascribe to anyone how we think they likely feel, without knowing much about them. Like, maybe at least some of the women who had negative experiences have nuanced feelings that aren’t best described as “I feel bad/invalidated whenever I see someone say positive things about Owen, even if they take care to not thereby downplay that the things he did weren’t acceptable.” Maybe some feel things like, “this stuff was messed up and really needed to be dealt with, and it sucks that it took so long/seemed like initially it wasn’t going to be dealt with, but it seems like things are developing in a good direction now.” Or maybe not! Maybe they’re still super upset and wish that Owen never re-enter the community again. That would be their right and seems understandable, too. In any case, the way I see it, we don’t know at this point (at least I don’t), and while I agree that it’s important to create encouraging incentives so people will be likely to report future instances of misconduct, I don’t think this requires a policy of “avoid at all costs saying things that might make someone who was affected uncomfortable.” (In fact, there’s also a risk of making people less likely to report uncomfortable experiences if they worry that there’ll be a community overreaction. That’s not the first thing I’d worry about, to be clear; I’m just pointing out that this could happen/be someone’s reason to be hesitant about speaking up about something.) Personally, the message I find most important is something like: I want us to take seriously that it’s unacceptable for people to predictably be at risk to have bad experiences like that in the EA community, and the community/Community Health takes this seriously and takes appropriate action.
I expressed support of another person’s comment that contained many positive points about Owen. I hope that no one feels like this means I’m “on Owen’s side” rather than on the side of the people who brought up these complaints. Owen seems to largely agree about the facts of what happened, and he seems genuinely committed to making sure similar stuff doesn’t happen again, plus he accepted the consequences (stepping down, two-year ban). These features of the situation IMO make it possible to not have to view this as “either you support the victims, or you can say a redeeming thing or two about Owen.”
This option of “not thinking of the situation as one where it’s about picking sides” isn’t always available. If a person accused of causing harm goes DARVO and accuses the alleged victims to be malefactors in return who make up false stories, then one is forced to either side with the alleged victims, or with the accused. Similarly, sometimes someone does something that’s immediately strong evidence that they are operating without even a desire to respect others (Milena Cenzler’s comment originally contained a hyperlink to the case of Brock Turner, who sexually assaulted an unconscious woman, as an example of how comments by supporters can sometimes be re-traumatizing to the victims). In those cases, it also seems to me like one can’t say much that’s redeeming about the person who caused harm without this being disrespectful towards the victims, both because of the severity of what they faced and because there’s not much redeeming you can say about someone who even lacks a basic desire/intent to respect others. But that sort of case has very different features from “confessed feeling attracted out of scrupulosity and misguided desire to get moral absolution from the people one is attracted to for not having to feel bad about the attraction.” It’s a very different thing.
(Edit) Lastly, I guess sometimes someone can be a skilled manipulator and seem remorseful and accept consequences but downplay the extent of the harm and downplay their “bad character.” If Owen were like that and people who said positive things about him just fell victim to his charm, that could also be invalidating for the people who were harmed. I don’t think that’s the case, but this would be another situation we want to try to avoid, so I feel like the people who say positive things about Owen have a responsibility to consider the possibility “am I being manipulated?.”
Thanks for this comment. I think I agree with a lot of what you say, and wanted to clarify that I am not saying people should pick sides. I just wanted to point out the imbalance of total personal support expressed for each “side”, without implying that you can’t show support for both.