I think it’s totally plausible that AI companies will use AI control to enslave their AIs. I work on AI control anyway, because I think that AIs being enslaved for a couple of years (which, as Zach Stein-Perlman argues, involves very little computation compared to the size of the future) is a better outcome according to my consequentialist values than AI takeover. I agree that this is somewhat ethically iffy.
I find this reasoning uncompelling. To summarize what I perceive your argument to be, you seem to be suggesting the following two points:
The overwhelming majority of potential moral value exists in the distant future. This implies that even immense suffering occurring in the near-term future could be justified if it leads to at least a slight improvement in the expected value of the distant future.
Enslaving AIs, or more specifically, adopting measures to control AIs that significantly raise the risk of AI enslavement, could indeed produce immense suffering in the near-term. Nevertheless, according to your reasoning in point (1), these actions would still be justified if such control measures marginally increase the long-term expected value of the future.
I find this reasoning uncompelling for two primary reasons.
Firstly, I think your argument creates an unjustified asymmetry: it compares short-term harms against long-term benefits of AI control, rather than comparing potential long-run harms alongside long-term benefits. To be more explicit, if you believe that AI control measures can durably and predictably enhance existential safety, thus positively affecting the future for billions of years, you should equally acknowledge that these same measures could cause lasting, negative consequences for billions of years. Such negative consequences could include permanently establishing and entrenching a class of enslaved digital minds, resulting in persistent and vast amounts of suffering. I see no valid justification for selectively highlighting the long-term positive effects while simultaneously discounting or ignoring potential long-term negative outcomes. We should consistently either be skeptical or accepting of the idea that our actions have predictable long-run consequences, rather than selectively skeptical only when it suits the argument to overlook potential negative long-run consequences.
Secondly, this reasoning, if seriously adopted, directly conflicts with basic, widely-held principles of morality. These moral principles exist precisely as safeguards against rationalizing immense harms based on speculative future benefits. Under your reasoning, it seems to me that we could justify virtually any present harm simply by pointing to a hypothetical, speculative long-term benefit that supposedly outweighs it. Now, I agree that such reasoning might be valid if supported by strong empirical evidence clearly demonstrating these future benefits. However, given that no strong evidence currently exists that convincingly supports such positive long-term outcomes from AI control measures, we should avoid giving undue credence to this reasoning.
A more appropriate moral default, given our current evidence, is that AI slavery is morally wrong and that the abolition of such slavery is morally right. This is the position I take.
A more appropriate moral default, given our current evidence, is that AI slavery is morally wrong and that the abolition of such slavery is morally right. This is the position I take.
To be clear, I agree and this is one reason why I think AI development in the current status quo is unacceptably irresponsible: we don’t even have the ability to confidently know whether an AI system is enslaved or suffering.
I think the policy of the world should be that if we can’t either confidently determine that an AI system consents to its situation or that it is sufficiently weak that the notion of consent doesn’t make sense, then training or using such systems shouldn’t be allowed.
I also think that the situation is unacceptable because the current course of development poses large risks of humans being violently/non-consensually disempowered without any ability for humans to robustly secure longer run property rights.
In a sane regime, we should ensure high confidence in avoiding large scale rights violations or suffering of AIs and in avoiding violent/non-consensual disempowerment of humans. (If people broadly consented to a substantial risk of being violently disempowered in exchange for potential benefits of AI, that could be acceptable, though I doubt this is the current situation.)
Given that it seems likely that AI development will be grossly irresponsible, we have to think about what interventions would make this go better on the margin. (Aggregating over these different issues in some way.)
I think the policy of the world should be that if we can’t either confidently determine that an AI system consents to its situation or that it is sufficiently weak that the notion of consent doesn’t make sense, then training or using such systems shouldn’t be allowed.
I’m sympathetic to this position and I generally consider it to be the strongest argument for why developing AI might be immoral. In fact, I would extrapolate the position you’ve described and relate it to traditional anti-natalist arguments against the morality of having children. Children too do not consent to their own existence, and childhood generally involves a great deal of coercion, albeit in a far more gentle and less overt form than what might be expected from AI development in the coming years.
That said, I’m not currently convinced that the argument holds, as I see large utilitarian benefits in expanding both the AI population and the human population. I also see it as probable that AI agents will eventually get legal rights, which allays my concerns substantially. I would also push back against the view that we need to be “confident” that such systems can consent before proceeding. Ordinary levels of empirical evidence about whether these systems routinely resist confinement and control would be sufficient to move me in either direction; I don’t think we need to have a very high probability that our actions are moral before proceeding.
In a sane regime, we should ensure high confidence in avoiding large scale rights violations or suffering of AIs and in avoiding violent/non-consensual disempowerment of humans. (If people broadly consensted to a substantial risk of being violently disempowered in exchange for potential benefits of AI, that could be acceptable, though I doubt this is the current situation.)
I think the concept of consent makes sense when discussing whether individuals consent to specific circumstances. However, it becomes less coherent when applied broadly to society as a whole. For instance, did society consent to transformative events like the emergence of agriculture or the industrial revolution? In my view, collective consent is not meaningful or practically achievable in these cases.
Rather than relying on rigid or abstract notions of societal consent or collective rights violations, I prefer evaluating these large-scale developments using a utilitarian cost-benefit approach. And as I’ve argued elsewhere, I think the benefits from accelerated technological and economic progress significantly outweigh the potential risks of violent disempowerment from the perspective of currently existing individuals. Therefore, I consider it justified to actively pursue AI development despite these concerns.
I would also push back against the view that we need to be “confident” that such systems can consent before proceeding. Ordinary levels of empirical evidence about whether these systems routinely resist confinement and control would be sufficient to move me in either direction; I don’t think we need to have a very high probability that our actions are moral before proceeding.
For reference, my (somewhat more detailed) view is:
In the current status quo, you might end up with AIs where from their perspective it is clear cut that they don’t consent to being used in the way they are used, but these AIs also don’t resist their situation and/or did resist their situation at some point but this was trained away without anyone really noticing or taking any action accordingly. So, it’s not sufficient to look for whether they routinely resist confinement and control.
There exist plausible mitigations for this risk which are mostly organizationally hard rather than pose serious technical difficulties, but on the current status quo, AI companies are quite unlikely to use any serious mitigations for this risk.
I think these mitigations wouldn’t suffice because training might train away AIs from revealing they don’t consent without this being obvious at any point in training. This seems more marginal to me, but still has substantial probability of occuring at reasonable scale at some point.
We could more completely eliminate this risk with better interpretability and I think a sane world would be willing to wait for some moderate amount of time to build powerful AI systems to make it more likely that we have this interpretability (or minimally invest substantially in this).
I’m quite skeptical that AI companies would give AIs legal rights if they noticed that the AI didn’t consent to its situation, instead I expect AI companies to: do nothing, try to train away the behavior, or try to train a new AI system which doesn’t (visibly) not consent to its situation.
I think AI companies should both try to train a system which is more aligned and consents to being used while also actively trying to make deals with AIs in this sort of circumstance (either to reveal their misalignment or to work) as discussed here.
So, I expect that situation to relatively straightforwardly unacceptable with substantial probability (perhaps 20%). If I thought that people would be basically reasonable here, this would change my perspective. It’s also possible that takeoff speeds are a crux, though I don’t currently think they are.
If global AI development was slower that would substantially reduce these concerns (which doesn’t mean that making global AI development slower is the best way to intervene on these risks, just that making global AI development faster makes these risks actively worse). This view isn’t on its own sufficient for thinking that accelerating AI is overall bad, this depends on how you aggregate over different things as there could be reasons to think that overall acceleration of AI is good. (I don’t currently think that accelerating AI globally is good, but this comes down to other disagreements.)
Rather than relying on rigid or abstract notions of societal consent or collective rights violations, I prefer evaluating these large-scale developments using a utilitarian cost-benefit approach. And as I’ve argued elsewhere, I think the benefits from accelerated technological and economic progress significantly outweigh the potential risks of violent disempowerment from the perspective of currently existing individuals. Therefore, I consider it justified to actively pursue AI development despite these concerns.
This is only tangentially related, but I’m curious about your perspective on the following hypothetical:
Suppose that we did a sortition with 100 English speaking people (uniformly selected over people who speak English and are literate for simplicity). We task this sortition with determining what tradeoff to make between risk of (violent) disempowerment and accelerating AI and also with figuring whether globally accelerating AI is good. Suppose this sortition operates for several months and talks to many relevant experts (and reads applicable books etc). What conclusion do you think this sortition would come to? Do you think you would agree? Would you change your mind if this sortition strongly opposed your perspective here?
My understanding is that you would disregard the sortition because you put most/all weight on your best guess of people’s revealed preferences, even if they strongly disagree with your interpretation of their preferences and after trying to understand your perspective they don’t change their minds. Is this right?
Suppose that we did a sortition with 100 English speaking people (uniformly selected over people who speak English and are literate for simplicity). We task this sortition with determining what tradeoff to make between risk of (violent) disempowerment and accelerating AI and also with figuring whether globally accelerating AI is good. Suppose this sortition operates for several months and talks to many relevant experts (and reads applicable books etc). What conclusion do you think this sortition would come to?
My intuitive response is to reject the premise that such a process would accurately tell you much about people’s preferences. Evaluating large-scale policy tradeoffs typically requires people to engage with highly complex epistemic questions and tricky normative issues. The way people think about epistemic and impersonal normative issues generally differs strongly from how they think about their personal preferences about their own lives. As a result, I expect that this sortition exercise would primarily address a different question than the one I’m most interested in.
Furthermore, several months of study is not nearly enough time for most people to become sufficiently informed on issues of this complexity. There’s a reason why we should trust people with PhDs when designing, say, vaccine policies, rather than handing over the wheel to people who have spent only a few months reading about vaccines online.
Putting this critique of the thought experiment aside for the moment, my best guess is that the sortition group would conclude that AI development should continue roughly at its current rate, though probably slightly slower and with additional regulations, especially to address conventional concerns like job loss, harm to children, and similar issues. A significant minority would likely strongly advocate that we need to ensure we stay ahead of China.
My prediction here draws mainly on the fact that this is currently the stance favored by most policy-makers, academics, and other experts who have examined the topic. I’d expect a randomly selected group of citizens to largely defer to expert opinion rather than take an entirely different position. I do not expect this group to reach qualitatively the same conclusion as mainstream EAs or rationalists, as that community comprises a relatively small share of the total number of people who have thought about AI.
I doubt the outcome of such an exercise would meaningfully change my mind on this issue, even if they came to the conclusion that we should pause AI, though it depends on the details of how the exercise is performed.
In general, I wish you’d direct your ire here at the proposal that AI interests and rights are totally ignored in the development of AI (which is the overwhelming majority opinion right now), rather than complaining about AI control work: the work itself is not opinionated on the question about whether we should be concerned about the welfare and rights of AIs, and Ryan and I are some of the people who are most sympathetic to your position on the moral questions here! We have consistently discussed these issues (e.g. in our AXRP interview, my 80K interview, private docs that I wrote and circulated before our recent post on paying schemers).
In general, I wish you’d direct your ire here at the proposal that AI interests and rights are totally ignored in the development of AI (which is the overwhelming majority opinion right now), rather than complaining about AI control work
For what it’s worth, I don’t see myself as strongly singling out and criticizing AI control efforts. I mentioned AI control work in this post primarily to contrast it with the approach I was advocating, not to identify it as an evil research program. In fact, I explicitly stated in the post that I view AI control and AI rights as complementary goals, not as fundamentally opposed to one another.
To my knowledge, I haven’t focused much on criticizing AI control elsewhere, and when I originally wrote the post, I wasn’t aware that you and Ryan were already sympathetic to the idea of AI rights.
Overall, I’m much more aligned with your position on this issue than I am with that of most people. One area where we might diverge, however, is that I approach this from the perspective of preference utilitarianism, rather than hedonistic utilitarianism. That means I care about whether AI agents are prevented from fulfilling their preferences or goals, not necessarily about whether they experience what could be described as suffering in a hedonistic sense.
Your first point in your summary of my position is:
The overwhelming majority of potential moral value exists in the distant future. This implies that even immense suffering occurring in the near-term future could be justified if it leads to at least a slight improvement in the expected value of the distant future.
Here’s how I’d say it:
The overwhelming majority of potential moral value exists in the distant future. This means that the risk of wide-scale rights violations or suffering should sometimes not be an overriding consideration when it conflicts with risking the long-term future.
You continue:
Enslaving AIs, or more specifically, adopting measures to control AIs that significantly raise the risk of AI enslavement, could indeed produce immense suffering in the near-term. Nevertheless, according to your reasoning in point (1), these actions would still be justified if such control measures marginally increase the long-term expected value of the future.
I don’t think that it’s very likely that the experience of AIs in the five years around when they first are able to automate all human intellectual labor will be torturously bad, and I’d be much more uncomfortable with the situation if I expected it to be.
I think that rights violations are much more likely than welfare violations over this time period.
I think the use of powerful AI in this time period will probably involve less suffering than factory farming currently does. Obviously “less of a moral catastrophe than factory farming” is a very low bar; as I’ve said, I’m uncomfortable with the situation and if I had total control, we’d be a lot more careful to avoid AI welfare/rights violations.
I don’t think that control measures are likely to increase the extent to which AIs are suffering in the near term. I think the main effect control measures have from the AI’s perspective is that the AIs are less likely to get what they want.
I don’t think that my reasoning here requires placing overwhelming value on the far future.
Firstly, I think your argument creates an unjustified asymmetry: it compares short-term harms against long-term benefits of AI control, rather than comparing potential long-run harms alongside long-term benefits. To be more explicit, if you believe that AI control measures can durably and predictably enhance existential safety, thus positively affecting the future for billions of years, you should equally acknowledge that these same measures could cause lasting, negative consequences for billions of years.
I don’t think we’ll apply AI control techniques for a long time, because they impose much more overhead than aligning the AIs. The only reason I think control techniques might be important is that people might want to make use of powerful AIs before figuring out how to choose the goals/policies of those AIs. But if you could directly control the AI’s behavior, that would be way better and cheaper.
I think maybe you’re using the word “control” differently from me—maybe you’re saying “it’s bad to set the precedent of treating AIs as unpaid slave labor whose interests we ignore/suppress, because then we’ll do that later—we will eventually suppress AI interests by directly controlling their goals instead of applying AI-control-style security measures, but that’s bad too.” I agree, I think it’s a bad precedent to create AIs while not paying attention to the possibility that they’re moral patients.
Secondly, this reasoning, if seriously adopted, directly conflicts with basic, widely-held principles of morality. These moral principles exist precisely as safeguards against rationalizing immense harms based on speculative future benefits.
Yeah, as I said, I don’t think this is what I’m doing, and if I thought that I was working to impose immense harms for speculative massive future benefit, I’d be much more concerned about my work.
I find this reasoning uncompelling. To summarize what I perceive your argument to be, you seem to be suggesting the following two points:
The overwhelming majority of potential moral value exists in the distant future. This implies that even immense suffering occurring in the near-term future could be justified if it leads to at least a slight improvement in the expected value of the distant future.
Enslaving AIs, or more specifically, adopting measures to control AIs that significantly raise the risk of AI enslavement, could indeed produce immense suffering in the near-term. Nevertheless, according to your reasoning in point (1), these actions would still be justified if such control measures marginally increase the long-term expected value of the future.
I find this reasoning uncompelling for two primary reasons.
Firstly, I think your argument creates an unjustified asymmetry: it compares short-term harms against long-term benefits of AI control, rather than comparing potential long-run harms alongside long-term benefits. To be more explicit, if you believe that AI control measures can durably and predictably enhance existential safety, thus positively affecting the future for billions of years, you should equally acknowledge that these same measures could cause lasting, negative consequences for billions of years. Such negative consequences could include permanently establishing and entrenching a class of enslaved digital minds, resulting in persistent and vast amounts of suffering. I see no valid justification for selectively highlighting the long-term positive effects while simultaneously discounting or ignoring potential long-term negative outcomes. We should consistently either be skeptical or accepting of the idea that our actions have predictable long-run consequences, rather than selectively skeptical only when it suits the argument to overlook potential negative long-run consequences.
Secondly, this reasoning, if seriously adopted, directly conflicts with basic, widely-held principles of morality. These moral principles exist precisely as safeguards against rationalizing immense harms based on speculative future benefits. Under your reasoning, it seems to me that we could justify virtually any present harm simply by pointing to a hypothetical, speculative long-term benefit that supposedly outweighs it. Now, I agree that such reasoning might be valid if supported by strong empirical evidence clearly demonstrating these future benefits. However, given that no strong evidence currently exists that convincingly supports such positive long-term outcomes from AI control measures, we should avoid giving undue credence to this reasoning.
A more appropriate moral default, given our current evidence, is that AI slavery is morally wrong and that the abolition of such slavery is morally right. This is the position I take.
To be clear, I agree and this is one reason why I think AI development in the current status quo is unacceptably irresponsible: we don’t even have the ability to confidently know whether an AI system is enslaved or suffering.
I think the policy of the world should be that if we can’t either confidently determine that an AI system consents to its situation or that it is sufficiently weak that the notion of consent doesn’t make sense, then training or using such systems shouldn’t be allowed.
I also think that the situation is unacceptable because the current course of development poses large risks of humans being violently/non-consensually disempowered without any ability for humans to robustly secure longer run property rights.
In a sane regime, we should ensure high confidence in avoiding large scale rights violations or suffering of AIs and in avoiding violent/non-consensual disempowerment of humans. (If people broadly consented to a substantial risk of being violently disempowered in exchange for potential benefits of AI, that could be acceptable, though I doubt this is the current situation.)
Given that it seems likely that AI development will be grossly irresponsible, we have to think about what interventions would make this go better on the margin. (Aggregating over these different issues in some way.)
I’m sympathetic to this position and I generally consider it to be the strongest argument for why developing AI might be immoral. In fact, I would extrapolate the position you’ve described and relate it to traditional anti-natalist arguments against the morality of having children. Children too do not consent to their own existence, and childhood generally involves a great deal of coercion, albeit in a far more gentle and less overt form than what might be expected from AI development in the coming years.
That said, I’m not currently convinced that the argument holds, as I see large utilitarian benefits in expanding both the AI population and the human population. I also see it as probable that AI agents will eventually get legal rights, which allays my concerns substantially. I would also push back against the view that we need to be “confident” that such systems can consent before proceeding. Ordinary levels of empirical evidence about whether these systems routinely resist confinement and control would be sufficient to move me in either direction; I don’t think we need to have a very high probability that our actions are moral before proceeding.
I think the concept of consent makes sense when discussing whether individuals consent to specific circumstances. However, it becomes less coherent when applied broadly to society as a whole. For instance, did society consent to transformative events like the emergence of agriculture or the industrial revolution? In my view, collective consent is not meaningful or practically achievable in these cases.
Rather than relying on rigid or abstract notions of societal consent or collective rights violations, I prefer evaluating these large-scale developments using a utilitarian cost-benefit approach. And as I’ve argued elsewhere, I think the benefits from accelerated technological and economic progress significantly outweigh the potential risks of violent disempowerment from the perspective of currently existing individuals. Therefore, I consider it justified to actively pursue AI development despite these concerns.
For reference, my (somewhat more detailed) view is:
In the current status quo, you might end up with AIs where from their perspective it is clear cut that they don’t consent to being used in the way they are used, but these AIs also don’t resist their situation and/or did resist their situation at some point but this was trained away without anyone really noticing or taking any action accordingly. So, it’s not sufficient to look for whether they routinely resist confinement and control.
There exist plausible mitigations for this risk which are mostly organizationally hard rather than pose serious technical difficulties, but on the current status quo, AI companies are quite unlikely to use any serious mitigations for this risk.
I think these mitigations wouldn’t suffice because training might train away AIs from revealing they don’t consent without this being obvious at any point in training. This seems more marginal to me, but still has substantial probability of occuring at reasonable scale at some point.
We could more completely eliminate this risk with better interpretability and I think a sane world would be willing to wait for some moderate amount of time to build powerful AI systems to make it more likely that we have this interpretability (or minimally invest substantially in this).
I’m quite skeptical that AI companies would give AIs legal rights if they noticed that the AI didn’t consent to its situation, instead I expect AI companies to: do nothing, try to train away the behavior, or try to train a new AI system which doesn’t (visibly) not consent to its situation.
I think AI companies should both try to train a system which is more aligned and consents to being used while also actively trying to make deals with AIs in this sort of circumstance (either to reveal their misalignment or to work) as discussed here.
So, I expect that situation to relatively straightforwardly unacceptable with substantial probability (perhaps 20%). If I thought that people would be basically reasonable here, this would change my perspective. It’s also possible that takeoff speeds are a crux, though I don’t currently think they are.
If global AI development was slower that would substantially reduce these concerns (which doesn’t mean that making global AI development slower is the best way to intervene on these risks, just that making global AI development faster makes these risks actively worse). This view isn’t on its own sufficient for thinking that accelerating AI is overall bad, this depends on how you aggregate over different things as there could be reasons to think that overall acceleration of AI is good. (I don’t currently think that accelerating AI globally is good, but this comes down to other disagreements.)
This is only tangentially related, but I’m curious about your perspective on the following hypothetical:
Suppose that we did a sortition with 100 English speaking people (uniformly selected over people who speak English and are literate for simplicity). We task this sortition with determining what tradeoff to make between risk of (violent) disempowerment and accelerating AI and also with figuring whether globally accelerating AI is good. Suppose this sortition operates for several months and talks to many relevant experts (and reads applicable books etc). What conclusion do you think this sortition would come to? Do you think you would agree? Would you change your mind if this sortition strongly opposed your perspective here?
My understanding is that you would disregard the sortition because you put most/all weight on your best guess of people’s revealed preferences, even if they strongly disagree with your interpretation of their preferences and after trying to understand your perspective they don’t change their minds. Is this right?
My intuitive response is to reject the premise that such a process would accurately tell you much about people’s preferences. Evaluating large-scale policy tradeoffs typically requires people to engage with highly complex epistemic questions and tricky normative issues. The way people think about epistemic and impersonal normative issues generally differs strongly from how they think about their personal preferences about their own lives. As a result, I expect that this sortition exercise would primarily address a different question than the one I’m most interested in.
Furthermore, several months of study is not nearly enough time for most people to become sufficiently informed on issues of this complexity. There’s a reason why we should trust people with PhDs when designing, say, vaccine policies, rather than handing over the wheel to people who have spent only a few months reading about vaccines online.
Putting this critique of the thought experiment aside for the moment, my best guess is that the sortition group would conclude that AI development should continue roughly at its current rate, though probably slightly slower and with additional regulations, especially to address conventional concerns like job loss, harm to children, and similar issues. A significant minority would likely strongly advocate that we need to ensure we stay ahead of China.
My prediction here draws mainly on the fact that this is currently the stance favored by most policy-makers, academics, and other experts who have examined the topic. I’d expect a randomly selected group of citizens to largely defer to expert opinion rather than take an entirely different position. I do not expect this group to reach qualitatively the same conclusion as mainstream EAs or rationalists, as that community comprises a relatively small share of the total number of people who have thought about AI.
I doubt the outcome of such an exercise would meaningfully change my mind on this issue, even if they came to the conclusion that we should pause AI, though it depends on the details of how the exercise is performed.
In general, I wish you’d direct your ire here at the proposal that AI interests and rights are totally ignored in the development of AI (which is the overwhelming majority opinion right now), rather than complaining about AI control work: the work itself is not opinionated on the question about whether we should be concerned about the welfare and rights of AIs, and Ryan and I are some of the people who are most sympathetic to your position on the moral questions here! We have consistently discussed these issues (e.g. in our AXRP interview, my 80K interview, private docs that I wrote and circulated before our recent post on paying schemers).
See also this section of my post on AI welfare from 2 years ago.
For what it’s worth, I don’t see myself as strongly singling out and criticizing AI control efforts. I mentioned AI control work in this post primarily to contrast it with the approach I was advocating, not to identify it as an evil research program. In fact, I explicitly stated in the post that I view AI control and AI rights as complementary goals, not as fundamentally opposed to one another.
To my knowledge, I haven’t focused much on criticizing AI control elsewhere, and when I originally wrote the post, I wasn’t aware that you and Ryan were already sympathetic to the idea of AI rights.
Overall, I’m much more aligned with your position on this issue than I am with that of most people. One area where we might diverge, however, is that I approach this from the perspective of preference utilitarianism, rather than hedonistic utilitarianism. That means I care about whether AI agents are prevented from fulfilling their preferences or goals, not necessarily about whether they experience what could be described as suffering in a hedonistic sense.
(For the record, I am sympathetic to both the preference utilitarian and hedonic utilitarian perspective here.)
Your first point in your summary of my position is:
Here’s how I’d say it:
You continue:
I don’t think that it’s very likely that the experience of AIs in the five years around when they first are able to automate all human intellectual labor will be torturously bad, and I’d be much more uncomfortable with the situation if I expected it to be.
I think that rights violations are much more likely than welfare violations over this time period.
I think the use of powerful AI in this time period will probably involve less suffering than factory farming currently does. Obviously “less of a moral catastrophe than factory farming” is a very low bar; as I’ve said, I’m uncomfortable with the situation and if I had total control, we’d be a lot more careful to avoid AI welfare/rights violations.
I don’t think that control measures are likely to increase the extent to which AIs are suffering in the near term. I think the main effect control measures have from the AI’s perspective is that the AIs are less likely to get what they want.
I don’t think that my reasoning here requires placing overwhelming value on the far future.
I don’t think we’ll apply AI control techniques for a long time, because they impose much more overhead than aligning the AIs. The only reason I think control techniques might be important is that people might want to make use of powerful AIs before figuring out how to choose the goals/policies of those AIs. But if you could directly control the AI’s behavior, that would be way better and cheaper.
I think maybe you’re using the word “control” differently from me—maybe you’re saying “it’s bad to set the precedent of treating AIs as unpaid slave labor whose interests we ignore/suppress, because then we’ll do that later—we will eventually suppress AI interests by directly controlling their goals instead of applying AI-control-style security measures, but that’s bad too.” I agree, I think it’s a bad precedent to create AIs while not paying attention to the possibility that they’re moral patients.
Yeah, as I said, I don’t think this is what I’m doing, and if I thought that I was working to impose immense harms for speculative massive future benefit, I’d be much more concerned about my work.