Hello AnonEALeftist—thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I’m sorry if you felt like you had to post anonymously because of being leftist.
I think what Richard is perhaps getting at here[1] is not to say that all leftist critiques of EA are bad, but instead that EAs have come across them and have considered them lacking, and that this DEAB section is trying to get EA to consider these ideas while not actually arguing for them on the object level first. You may find this unfair, and I think the (alleged) ideological clash between EA and the Left has been danced around a bit by the community. I’m very much in favour of more constructive debate between the Left and EA though, and I hope you fellow lefty EAs can help contribute to that :)
I will point out that to-date, all the major EA scandals have been caused by libertarians
I don’t think this is fully below-the-belt, but I think libertarian EAs would push back that libertarianism would necessarily be related, or causally responsible, for these harms.[2]
If EA became more left-wing, in my leftist opinion, it would be more “EA”, if you get what I mean.
I definitely get you mean, and I’d like to see the community explore it more in good faith. Are there any articles/resources that you think would be helpful for non-leftist EAs trying to explore this point of view? One thing I find fairly off-putting about some[3] leftist criticism is how relentlessly hostile it is. For example, I find it very difficult to see Crary’s criticism of EA as being in good faith, and I don’t think this is just because she’s not framing her arguments in EA language/terms, but even when EA is critical of the Left, I don’t think we call Leftism “a straightforward case of moral corruption”.
For example, I find it very difficult to see Crary’s criticism of EA as being in good faith, and I don’t think this is just because she’s not framing her arguments in EA language/terms, but even when EA is critical of the Left, I don’t think we call Leftism “a straightforward case of moral corruption”.
I have seen some EA’s accuse certain critiques as bad faith where I found them the opposite, and have seen attacks on Leftists (e.g. leftmism would make EA less analytical in the above comment). So I think a lot of this is due to differences in worldview/perspective.
But I certainly agree that there are some critiques of EA that are genuinely poorly done.
In terms of critiques I like:
Kemp makes great points about EAs being captured by wealthy interests
I do agree that some EAs have labelled certain critiques as ‘bad faith’ or ‘bad epistemics’ without backing it up with clear reasoning, I just think there hasn’t been much vitriol of the level Crary engages with in her article, and I think that can be a barrier to good-faith dialogue on both sides.
The Kemp piece looks really good! I’ve bookmarked it and will make sure to read. I’m aware of Garrison and Habiba but will look into what Rutger has said. Thanks for sharing these people and their perspectives, I think these are exactly the kind of perspectives that EA should be listening to and engaging with.
The McGoey piece seems (at first glance) like it’s a bit in between the two. EAs having a blindspot about the policies of the IMF/WTO (especially in the postwar 20th century and the ascendance of the “Washington Consensus”)[1] and how they may have harmed the world’s poorest people seems like a very valid critique that EAs could explore for sure. But the article subheading calls EA “the Dumbest Idea of the Century”. Now, of course, EA critiques shouldn’t have to obey Marquess of Queensberry rules in order to be listened to be EAs. But I think it’s probably a psychological fact that if a group of critics keeps calling your ideas some combination of “moral corruption”, “the dumbest idea”, “excuses for the rich” and “white supremacist/fascist”[2], then you’ll probably just stop responding to their work.
If any EAs want to look into this, I’d recommend starting with Globalization and Its Discontents, by noted leftie firebrand *checks notes* Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel laureate in economics and former Chief Economist of the World bank
But I think it’s probably a psychological fact that if a group of critics keeps calling your ideas some combination of “moral corruption”, “the dumbest idea”, “excuses for the rich” and “white supremacist/fascist”[2], then you’ll probably just stop responding to their work.
I understand. I never take this stuff personally myself. I even think it’s more important to engage with criticism (provided you are headstrong for it—at that time and place) if it’s espescially disagreeable/ hostile.
I haven’t read Crary but it’s on my list. The headline for McGoey’s piece is quite harsh, but there’s no real nice way to say some of these things (e.g. “excuses for the rich” isn’t that much nicer from what Kemp says about EA being captured by billionaire interests). These critics sincerely hold these positions—whilst it’s head for us to hear—it wouldn’t be right for them to water down their criticisms either.
And ultimately, doesn’t EA deserve harsh criticism, with the spate of scandals that have emerged & emerging? If it’s ultimately good for EA in the end—bring it on! More critcism is good.
Hello AnonEALeftist—thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I’m sorry if you felt like you had to post anonymously because of being leftist.
I think what Richard is perhaps getting at here[1] is not to say that all leftist critiques of EA are bad, but instead that EAs have come across them and have considered them lacking, and that this DEAB section is trying to get EA to consider these ideas while not actually arguing for them on the object level first. You may find this unfair, and I think the (alleged) ideological clash between EA and the Left has been danced around a bit by the community. I’m very much in favour of more constructive debate between the Left and EA though, and I hope you fellow lefty EAs can help contribute to that :)
I don’t think this is fully below-the-belt, but I think libertarian EAs would push back that libertarianism would necessarily be related, or causally responsible, for these harms.[2]
I definitely get you mean, and I’d like to see the community explore it more in good faith. Are there any articles/resources that you think would be helpful for non-leftist EAs trying to explore this point of view? One thing I find fairly off-putting about some[3] leftist criticism is how relentlessly hostile it is. For example, I find it very difficult to see Crary’s criticism of EA as being in good faith, and I don’t think this is just because she’s not framing her arguments in EA language/terms, but even when EA is critical of the Left, I don’t think we call Leftism “a straightforward case of moral corruption”.
Or at least, one interpretation
Not really wanting to dive fully into this—but it’s somewhat analogous to being against all of EA because of SBF
But not all!
Thank you JWS. Really appreciate your comments.
I have seen some EA’s accuse certain critiques as bad faith where I found them the opposite, and have seen attacks on Leftists (e.g. leftmism would make EA less analytical in the above comment). So I think a lot of this is due to differences in worldview/perspective.
But I certainly agree that there are some critiques of EA that are genuinely poorly done.
In terms of critiques I like:
Kemp makes great points about EAs being captured by wealthy interests
https://renewal.org.uk/effective-altruism-longtermism-and-democracy-an-interview-with-dr-luke-kemp/
McGoey makes good points about EA culture, e.g. EAs generally being ignorant of the role the IMF/WTO have played in exacerbating global poverty
But also in terms of left wing EA support, Garrison Lovely, Rutger Bregman, & Habiba of 80K.
I do agree that some EAs have labelled certain critiques as ‘bad faith’ or ‘bad epistemics’ without backing it up with clear reasoning, I just think there hasn’t been much vitriol of the level Crary engages with in her article, and I think that can be a barrier to good-faith dialogue on both sides.
The Kemp piece looks really good! I’ve bookmarked it and will make sure to read. I’m aware of Garrison and Habiba but will look into what Rutger has said. Thanks for sharing these people and their perspectives, I think these are exactly the kind of perspectives that EA should be listening to and engaging with.
The McGoey piece seems (at first glance) like it’s a bit in between the two. EAs having a blindspot about the policies of the IMF/WTO (especially in the postwar 20th century and the ascendance of the “Washington Consensus”)[1] and how they may have harmed the world’s poorest people seems like a very valid critique that EAs could explore for sure. But the article subheading calls EA “the Dumbest Idea of the Century”. Now, of course, EA critiques shouldn’t have to obey Marquess of Queensberry rules in order to be listened to be EAs. But I think it’s probably a psychological fact that if a group of critics keeps calling your ideas some combination of “moral corruption”, “the dumbest idea”, “excuses for the rich” and “white supremacist/fascist”[2], then you’ll probably just stop responding to their work.
If any EAs want to look into this, I’d recommend starting with Globalization and Its Discontents, by noted leftie firebrand *checks notes* Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel laureate in economics and former Chief Economist of the World bank
Torres & Gebru especially deploy the rhetoric of the last 2
Glad to hear it.
I understand. I never take this stuff personally myself. I even think it’s more important to engage with criticism (provided you are headstrong for it—at that time and place) if it’s espescially disagreeable/ hostile.
I haven’t read Crary but it’s on my list. The headline for McGoey’s piece is quite harsh, but there’s no real nice way to say some of these things (e.g. “excuses for the rich” isn’t that much nicer from what Kemp says about EA being captured by billionaire interests). These critics sincerely hold these positions—whilst it’s head for us to hear—it wouldn’t be right for them to water down their criticisms either.
And ultimately, doesn’t EA deserve harsh criticism, with the spate of scandals that have emerged & emerging? If it’s ultimately good for EA in the end—bring it on! More critcism is good.