(So my aim was less to propose a norm, more to challenge an implicit preconception I’ve heard of (elsewhere in EA too!) - that a person who highly values honesty will, necessarily, end up hurting others’ feelings. I don’t really agree with “proposing norms” as an activity—I’m just reacting a certain way to certain people, and they can react to my reaction my changing their behaviour, or not doing that.
You seem to be worried that advocating for a norm that’s already strong critiques tends to lead to unfair punishments for transgressors. I don’t really think there’s a basis for this. Are there many instances in EA where you think people have been punished excessively and disproportionately for minor transgressions? Is this a pattern? Fwiw I don’t want to “punish” people who radically honest in hurtful ways—I just want them to understand that they can be honest and also kind/empathetic.
In general, I think that the way norms stay strong is by people advocating for them, even if people already mostly agree. It teaches newcomers the norm and reminds older community members. It can be worth stating the obvious. But my original point doesn’t seem to be that obvious, given that the original letter-writer was having problems with people “breaking” this supposed “norm”.
You seem to have written against proposing norms in the past. So apologies for my mistake and I’m glad that’s not your intention.
To be clear, I think we should be free to write as we wish. Regardless, it still seems to me that voicing support for an already quite popular position on restricting expression comes with the risk of strengthening associated norms and bringing about the multiple downsides I mentioned.
Among the downsides, yes, the worry that strengthening strong norms dealing with ‘offensive’ expression can lead to unfair punishments. This is not a baseless fear. There are historical examples of norms on restricting expression leading to unfair punishments; strong religious and political norms have allowed religious inquisitors and political regimes to suppress dissenting voices.
I don’t think EA is near the worst forms of it. In my previous comment, I was only pointing to a worrying trend towards that direction. We may (hopefully) never arrive at the destination. But along the way, there are more mild excesses. There have been a few instances where, I believe, the prevailing culture has resulted in disproportionate punishment either directly from the community or indirectly from external entities whose actions were, in part, enabled by the community’s behavior. I probably won’t discuss this too publicly but if necessary we can continue elsewhere.
(So my aim was less to propose a norm, more to challenge an implicit preconception I’ve heard of (elsewhere in EA too!) - that a person who highly values honesty will, necessarily, end up hurting others’ feelings. I don’t really agree with “proposing norms” as an activity—I’m just reacting a certain way to certain people, and they can react to my reaction my changing their behaviour, or not doing that.
You seem to be worried that advocating for a norm that’s already strong critiques tends to lead to unfair punishments for transgressors. I don’t really think there’s a basis for this. Are there many instances in EA where you think people have been punished excessively and disproportionately for minor transgressions? Is this a pattern? Fwiw I don’t want to “punish” people who radically honest in hurtful ways—I just want them to understand that they can be honest and also kind/empathetic.
In general, I think that the way norms stay strong is by people advocating for them, even if people already mostly agree. It teaches newcomers the norm and reminds older community members. It can be worth stating the obvious. But my original point doesn’t seem to be that obvious, given that the original letter-writer was having problems with people “breaking” this supposed “norm”.
You seem to have written against proposing norms in the past. So apologies for my mistake and I’m glad that’s not your intention.
To be clear, I think we should be free to write as we wish. Regardless, it still seems to me that voicing support for an already quite popular position on restricting expression comes with the risk of strengthening associated norms and bringing about the multiple downsides I mentioned.
Among the downsides, yes, the worry that strengthening strong norms dealing with ‘offensive’ expression can lead to unfair punishments. This is not a baseless fear. There are historical examples of norms on restricting expression leading to unfair punishments; strong religious and political norms have allowed religious inquisitors and political regimes to suppress dissenting voices.
I don’t think EA is near the worst forms of it. In my previous comment, I was only pointing to a worrying trend towards that direction. We may (hopefully) never arrive at the destination. But along the way, there are more mild excesses. There have been a few instances where, I believe, the prevailing culture has resulted in disproportionate punishment either directly from the community or indirectly from external entities whose actions were, in part, enabled by the community’s behavior. I probably won’t discuss this too publicly but if necessary we can continue elsewhere.