I’m grateful for this comment, because it’s an exemplar of the kind of comment that makes me feel most disappointed by the EA community.
It’s bad enough that influential EAs have caused a lot of damage to other individuals, and to the good work that might be done by the community. But it’s really upsetting that a lot of the community (at least as exemplified by the comments on the forum; I know this isn’t fully representative) doesn’t seem to take it seriously enough. We’re talking about really horrible examples of racism and sexual harassment here, not ‘woke activism’ gone too far. It hurts people directly, it repels others from the community, and it also makes it harder to further important causes.
It’s also couched in the terms of ‘rationalism’ and academic integrity (“let me try to steel-man a possible counter-argument...”), rather than just coming out and saying what it is. I don’t think you’re (merely) trying to make a hypothetical argument. Similarly the “I hope EAs see what’s [really]* happening here, and understand the clear and present dangers...” sounds alarmist to me.
*I included the [really], because it seems to me like the author of the comment is trying to lend weight to their argument by implying they are revealing something most people would otherwise miss.
I understand the frustrations you and others are voicing, but to me I think it’s more a lack of competence and understanding of management/power differentials/social skills from some of the higher level EAs. I highly doubt that the upper echelons of EA are full of malicious sociopaths who are intentionally harming people.
EA has done a lot of good, and people make mistakes often. I do think we need to rectify them and punish bad behavior, but we should try and make sure we don’t alienate the old guard of EA for making mistakes in the socializing/dating world. A lot of people struggle to understand what is okay and what isn’t—I’d rather try and reconcile or educate them than attack each other. That’s the point of this post.
My comment here was about Geoffrey Miller’s comment, rather than your original post as a whole (albeit I separately took issue with your use of “relatively petty...”), so I’m not sure I follow where you’re going here.
FWIW, if you’re referring to recently-come-to-light examples of sexual harassment and racism when you say “it’s more a lack of competence...”, then I would disagree with your characterisation. I think by saying that the likes of Owen Cotton-Barratt and Nick Bostrom aren’t “malicious sociopaths”, and that they didn’t do it ‘intentionally’ you fail to acknowledge the harm they’ve done. It’s a similar line of argument to your original post when you compare the harm done with “the survival of the human race”. I think it’s missing the point, it’s insensitive, and implies that they’re not soooo bad.
I also worry when the initial reaction to someone’s misdeeds is “let’s make sure we don’t punish them too harshly, or we’ll alienate them”, rather than “this is really wrong, and our first priority should be to make sure it doesn’t happen again”. My initial response isn’t to shed a tear for the damage to the career of the person who did the wrong thing.
I disagree with your framing this as “attacking” the people that have done wrong. If anything, it’s the people on the end of the sexual harassment that have been attacked.
I find it distasteful when people point to things like “EA has done a lot of good” or “EA has saved a lot of lives” in the context of revelations of sexual harassment etc. While it might be factually correct, I think it gives the sense that people think it’s OK to do horrible personal things as long as you donate enough to Givewell (I very much disagree).
And one final point: I don’t think “the old guard of EA” is the right frame (although I’m somewhat biased as I was involved in EA in 2011-12). I don’t believe the majority of wrongdoers are from this group, nor do I believe the majority of this group are wrongdoers.
Thanks for responding. For what it’s worth I personally think OCB should be permanently resigned from a powerful position in EA, and possibly socially distanced. Strong incentives against that type of behavior, especially right now, are extremely important. I’m disappointed with the response from EVF and think it should be far harsher.
The distinction I’m trying to make is that we shouldn’t assume all powerful people in EA are bad apples as a result of this scandal breaking.
I agree with this—it is also why I disagree-voted, and no, I don’t have notifications set up for Geoffrey (as mentioned in another comment by them).
The comment felt to me like it was undermining a lot of the recent criticism regarding people in powerful positions, AT THE VERY LEAST, showing very bad judgement. The comment makes me very sad and angry.
I’m grateful for this comment, because it’s an exemplar of the kind of comment that makes me feel most disappointed by the EA community.
It’s bad enough that influential EAs have caused a lot of damage to other individuals, and to the good work that might be done by the community. But it’s really upsetting that a lot of the community (at least as exemplified by the comments on the forum; I know this isn’t fully representative) doesn’t seem to take it seriously enough. We’re talking about really horrible examples of racism and sexual harassment here, not ‘woke activism’ gone too far. It hurts people directly, it repels others from the community, and it also makes it harder to further important causes.
It’s also couched in the terms of ‘rationalism’ and academic integrity (“let me try to steel-man a possible counter-argument...”), rather than just coming out and saying what it is. I don’t think you’re (merely) trying to make a hypothetical argument. Similarly the “I hope EAs see what’s [really]* happening here, and understand the clear and present dangers...” sounds alarmist to me.
*I included the [really], because it seems to me like the author of the comment is trying to lend weight to their argument by implying they are revealing something most people would otherwise miss.
I understand the frustrations you and others are voicing, but to me I think it’s more a lack of competence and understanding of management/power differentials/social skills from some of the higher level EAs. I highly doubt that the upper echelons of EA are full of malicious sociopaths who are intentionally harming people.
EA has done a lot of good, and people make mistakes often. I do think we need to rectify them and punish bad behavior, but we should try and make sure we don’t alienate the old guard of EA for making mistakes in the socializing/dating world. A lot of people struggle to understand what is okay and what isn’t—I’d rather try and reconcile or educate them than attack each other. That’s the point of this post.
Does that framing make sense to you?
Hi Wil,
My comment here was about Geoffrey Miller’s comment, rather than your original post as a whole (albeit I separately took issue with your use of “relatively petty...”), so I’m not sure I follow where you’re going here.
FWIW, if you’re referring to recently-come-to-light examples of sexual harassment and racism when you say “it’s more a lack of competence...”, then I would disagree with your characterisation. I think by saying that the likes of Owen Cotton-Barratt and Nick Bostrom aren’t “malicious sociopaths”, and that they didn’t do it ‘intentionally’ you fail to acknowledge the harm they’ve done. It’s a similar line of argument to your original post when you compare the harm done with “the survival of the human race”. I think it’s missing the point, it’s insensitive, and implies that they’re not soooo bad.
I also worry when the initial reaction to someone’s misdeeds is “let’s make sure we don’t punish them too harshly, or we’ll alienate them”, rather than “this is really wrong, and our first priority should be to make sure it doesn’t happen again”. My initial response isn’t to shed a tear for the damage to the career of the person who did the wrong thing.
I disagree with your framing this as “attacking” the people that have done wrong. If anything, it’s the people on the end of the sexual harassment that have been attacked.
I find it distasteful when people point to things like “EA has done a lot of good” or “EA has saved a lot of lives” in the context of revelations of sexual harassment etc. While it might be factually correct, I think it gives the sense that people think it’s OK to do horrible personal things as long as you donate enough to Givewell (I very much disagree).
And one final point: I don’t think “the old guard of EA” is the right frame (although I’m somewhat biased as I was involved in EA in 2011-12). I don’t believe the majority of wrongdoers are from this group, nor do I believe the majority of this group are wrongdoers.
So no, that framing does not make sense to me.
Thanks for responding. For what it’s worth I personally think OCB should be permanently resigned from a powerful position in EA, and possibly socially distanced. Strong incentives against that type of behavior, especially right now, are extremely important. I’m disappointed with the response from EVF and think it should be far harsher.
The distinction I’m trying to make is that we shouldn’t assume all powerful people in EA are bad apples as a result of this scandal breaking.
Thanks Wil. I can agree with that.
I agree with this—it is also why I disagree-voted, and no, I don’t have notifications set up for Geoffrey (as mentioned in another comment by them).
The comment felt to me like it was undermining a lot of the recent criticism regarding people in powerful positions, AT THE VERY LEAST, showing very bad judgement. The comment makes me very sad and angry.