The article paints a disturbing picture of systematic abuse.
Sections of your comment like
I’m unconvinced that the actual sum of all these reported incidents points to anything particularly bad, aside from “humans are gonna human”. I can think of many other communities that seem to be in much worse shape.
come off as incredibly trivializing and is further evidence of the dismissive attitude toward these serious problems that the community prefers to downplay and ignore.
I should clarify that “particularly bad” should be “unusually bad”, and by “unusually” I mean “unusual by the standards of human behavior in other professional/intellectual communities”.
If someone writes an article about the murder epidemic in New York City, and someone else points out that the NYC murder rate is not at all unusual by U.S. standards, and that murder tends to be common throughout human society, is that a trivializing thing to say?
Murderers should be removed from society for a long time
NYC should strongly consider taking further action aimed at preventing murder
The NYC murder rate doesn’t point to NYC being more dangerous than other cities
People in NYC shouldn’t feel especially unsafe
People who want to get involved in theater should still consider moving to NYC
Some of the actions NYC could take to try preventing murder would likely be helpful
Other actions would likely be unhelpful on net, either failing to prevent murder or causing other serious problems
Focusing on the murder rate as a top-priority issue would have both good and bad impacts for NYC, and there may be other problems that should be prioritized
People who know about murders should strongly consider informing the police, even if they are at risk of retaliation within their communities; this would be very likely to reduce the murder rate
And yet, it is highly understandable if people at risk don’t want to inform the police about murders, and the police need to be extremely vigilant about protecting informants from retaliation (perhaps more vigilant than they have been...)
I’m in the position of believing many things at once, and I remain unconvinced that EA and rationality are unusually bad communities to be in, if a person seeks community. But I am reading comments and trying to learn, and I think there are plenty of things EA and rationality could do better on this front.
I am encouraging you to try to exercise your empathetic muscles and understand the difference for a sexual assault victim to read a top comment that categorically condemns such actions, insisting that we need to do better as a community, compared to one that says “humans are gonna human”.
If someone writes an article about the murder epidemic in New York City, and someone else points out that the NYC murder rate is not at all unusual by U.S. standards, and that murder tends to be common throughout human society, is that a trivializing thing to say?
Your analogy does not share the same relevant features as in this case. We’re not a city, we’re a community. One that should try to be a welcoming space that takes one’s concerns seriously instead of dismissing them because they might not be above the base rate.
Murderers should be removed from society for a long time
NYC should strongly consider taking further action aimed at preventing murder
And they closed with “I am..trying to learn, and I think there are plenty of things EA and rationality could do better on this front.”
FYI that your comment reads as unfair, or bad-faith, or possibly even disingenuous.
It also reads to me as patronizing to women, expecting that they can’t follow the nuance of the discussion and see empathy in kenneko’s comment. It is clearly there. We can still expect that all our members engage in good faith. I’m a sexual assault victim (and of other types of sexual misconduct) and have reported EA-adjacent men who have done troubling things in the community, and I thought kenneko’s comment (this one and the top level one) was great.
NOTE: I also believe you have misused the term sexual assault. We aren’t just talking about sexual assault. We are talking about all types of sexual harrassment and misconduct. For example, I think only one instance mentioned in Time or Bloomberg was assault. I really am hoping people can keep terminology straight, because the classifications exist for reasons.
Furthermore, if a community wants to command billions of dollars and exert major influence on one of the world’s most important industries, it is both totally predictable and appropriate that society will scrutinize that community more rigorously and hold it to a higher standard than a group of “NPCs”.
Let’s make sure we are addressing problems that still exist in the EA community (if you would like to discuss the rationality community you can join their discussion on LW)
If we decide problems do still exist, let’s make sure we are attaching them to the right community, even microcosm of community, as both the EA and rationality community are huge and those not involved don’t deserve to be punished for things they handled well or would have handled well
If issues remain, let’s be fair in who we give the responsibility to handle those remaining issues, eg whatever bad actors remain and whatever issues still exist in whatever community microcosm.
The article paints a disturbing picture of systematic abuse.
Sections of your comment like
come off as incredibly trivializing and is further evidence of the dismissive attitude toward these serious problems that the community prefers to downplay and ignore.
I should clarify that “particularly bad” should be “unusually bad”, and by “unusually” I mean “unusual by the standards of human behavior in other professional/intellectual communities”.
If someone writes an article about the murder epidemic in New York City, and someone else points out that the NYC murder rate is not at all unusual by U.S. standards, and that murder tends to be common throughout human society, is that a trivializing thing to say?
You can believe a lot of things at once:
Murder is terrible
433 murders is 433 too many
Murderers should be removed from society for a long time
NYC should strongly consider taking further action aimed at preventing murder
The NYC murder rate doesn’t point to NYC being more dangerous than other cities
People in NYC shouldn’t feel especially unsafe
People who want to get involved in theater should still consider moving to NYC
Some of the actions NYC could take to try preventing murder would likely be helpful
Other actions would likely be unhelpful on net, either failing to prevent murder or causing other serious problems
Focusing on the murder rate as a top-priority issue would have both good and bad impacts for NYC, and there may be other problems that should be prioritized
People who know about murders should strongly consider informing the police, even if they are at risk of retaliation within their communities; this would be very likely to reduce the murder rate
And yet, it is highly understandable if people at risk don’t want to inform the police about murders, and the police need to be extremely vigilant about protecting informants from retaliation (perhaps more vigilant than they have been...)
I’m in the position of believing many things at once, and I remain unconvinced that EA and rationality are unusually bad communities to be in, if a person seeks community. But I am reading comments and trying to learn, and I think there are plenty of things EA and rationality could do better on this front.
I am encouraging you to try to exercise your empathetic muscles and understand the difference for a sexual assault victim to read a top comment that categorically condemns such actions, insisting that we need to do better as a community, compared to one that says “humans are gonna human”.
Your analogy does not share the same relevant features as in this case. We’re not a city, we’re a community. One that should try to be a welcoming space that takes one’s concerns seriously instead of dismissing them because they might not be above the base rate.
Hey, fenneko literally included:
Murder is terrible
433 murders is 433 too many
Murderers should be removed from society for a long time
NYC should strongly consider taking further action aimed at preventing murder
And they closed with “I am..trying to learn, and I think there are plenty of things EA and rationality could do better on this front.”
FYI that your comment reads as unfair, or bad-faith, or possibly even disingenuous.
It also reads to me as patronizing to women, expecting that they can’t follow the nuance of the discussion and see empathy in kenneko’s comment. It is clearly there. We can still expect that all our members engage in good faith. I’m a sexual assault victim (and of other types of sexual misconduct) and have reported EA-adjacent men who have done troubling things in the community, and I thought kenneko’s comment (this one and the top level one) was great.
NOTE: I also believe you have misused the term sexual assault. We aren’t just talking about sexual assault. We are talking about all types of sexual harrassment and misconduct. For example, I think only one instance mentioned in Time or Bloomberg was assault. I really am hoping people can keep terminology straight, because the classifications exist for reasons.
Furthermore, if a community wants to command billions of dollars and exert major influence on one of the world’s most important industries, it is both totally predictable and appropriate that society will scrutinize that community more rigorously and hold it to a higher standard than a group of “NPCs”.
edit: typo
That’s reasonable. But :
Let’s make sure we are addressing problems that still exist in the EA community (if you would like to discuss the rationality community you can join their discussion on LW)
If we decide problems do still exist, let’s make sure we are attaching them to the right community, even microcosm of community, as both the EA and rationality community are huge and those not involved don’t deserve to be punished for things they handled well or would have handled well
If issues remain, let’s be fair in who we give the responsibility to handle those remaining issues, eg whatever bad actors remain and whatever issues still exist in whatever community microcosm.