So I agree with many of the other comments overall about the need to give concrete positive feedback, especially if you’re in a position of authority over others. And indeed I strive to be positive and encouraging whenever I’m in a position of management or mentorship. On the other hand, given the current state of the EA community, it is very much the case that many objectively talented people do not find good fits with doing the type of work they want to do in our community. So I think frank high-level feedback is also undersupplied, including very broad ones like:
a) you are a valuable person who may contribute to EA in other ways, just this thing you suggest is not your comparative advantage and really is probably net negative
or
b) you are a valuable person intrinsically but I don’t think you are a good fit for the EA community at the current state, so unfortunately you should probably just make a name for yourself elsewhere and come back to the community in 5 years
I think in my own case, I could’ve benefitted from more feedback like a) in the past (eg in a lot of my attempts at meta work). I think b) is harder feedback to give and also has much worse downside risks if you’re wrong, but such feedback would also have saved some people substantial time, money, and emotional grief if delivered judiciously and carefully.
I agree with the gist of this comment, but just a brief note that you do not need to do direct work to be “part of the EA community”. Donating is good as well. :-)
I think a lot of this is an empirical question of what’s needed. I think my own view is that some people in the position I described will grow stronger and contribute to the movement more if they are willing to try difficult ambitious things outside of the movement and come back when they/EA have both matured somewhat in slightly uncorrelated ways, rather than thinking of their impact as primarily through donations (which for most people may not look like trying their best to do a really good job either starting something new or trying hard to climb career ladders, but more like being relatively mediocre).
It’s an empirical question however, and I’m open to people thinking I’m wrong and the long-term impact-maximizing thing for almost everybody who aren’t doing direct EA jobs is usually donations or relatively untargeted external jobs.
I agree that it’s valuable to give honest feedback if you think that someone should consider trying something else, rather than just giving blithely positive feedback that might cause them to continue pursuing something that’s a bad fit.
It’s probably worth being especially thoughtful about the way that such feedback is framed. For example, if feedback of type a) can be made constructive, it might make it seem more sincerely encouraging: rather than “it’s probably bad for you to do this kind of work”, saying “I actually think that you might not be as well suited to this kind of work as others in the EA community because others are better at [specific thing], but from [strength X] and [strength Y] that I’ve noticed, I wonder if you’ve considered [type of work T] or [type of work S]?” (I know that you were paraphrasing and wouldn’t say those actual phrases to people)
For feedback of type b), my gut reaction is that basically no one should be given feedback of that type because of the risk if you’re wrong as you say, but also because of the risk of exacerbating feelings that only sufficiently impressive people are welcome in EA. I guess it depends whether you mean “you’re a valued member of this community, but not competitive for a job in the community” or “you’re not good enough to be a member of this community”. I agree that some people should be given the first type of feedback if you’re sure enough, but I don’t think anyone should be told they’re not good enough to join the community.
I think I have a fairly different attitude towards feedback compared to you and some of the other commenters. My generally view is that subject to time constraints, giving and receiving lots of feedback is both individually and institutionally healthier, and also we should be more willing to give low-quality and low-certainty feedback when we’re not sure (and disclaim that we’re not sure) rather than leave things unsaid.
In general I think people aren’t correctly modeling that constructive feedback is both time and emotionally costly, and 1) suggesting more roadblocks to making it harder to deliver such feedback makes our community worse and 2) what happens when you don’t give negative feedback isn’t that people are slightly deluded but overall emotionally happier. People’s emotions adjust and a fair number of junior EAs basically act like they’re stepping on eggshells because they don’t know if what they’re doing is perceived as bad/dumb because nobody would tell them.
So I agree with many of the other comments overall about the need to give concrete positive feedback, especially if you’re in a position of authority over others. And indeed I strive to be positive and encouraging whenever I’m in a position of management or mentorship. On the other hand, given the current state of the EA community, it is very much the case that many objectively talented people do not find good fits with doing the type of work they want to do in our community. So I think frank high-level feedback is also undersupplied, including very broad ones like:
or
I think in my own case, I could’ve benefitted from more feedback like a) in the past (eg in a lot of my attempts at meta work). I think b) is harder feedback to give and also has much worse downside risks if you’re wrong, but such feedback would also have saved some people substantial time, money, and emotional grief if delivered judiciously and carefully.
I agree with the gist of this comment, but just a brief note that you do not need to do direct work to be “part of the EA community”. Donating is good as well. :-)
I think a lot of this is an empirical question of what’s needed. I think my own view is that some people in the position I described will grow stronger and contribute to the movement more if they are willing to try difficult ambitious things outside of the movement and come back when they/EA have both matured somewhat in slightly uncorrelated ways, rather than thinking of their impact as primarily through donations (which for most people may not look like trying their best to do a really good job either starting something new or trying hard to climb career ladders, but more like being relatively mediocre).
It’s an empirical question however, and I’m open to people thinking I’m wrong and the long-term impact-maximizing thing for almost everybody who aren’t doing direct EA jobs is usually donations or relatively untargeted external jobs.
I agree that it’s valuable to give honest feedback if you think that someone should consider trying something else, rather than just giving blithely positive feedback that might cause them to continue pursuing something that’s a bad fit.
It’s probably worth being especially thoughtful about the way that such feedback is framed. For example, if feedback of type a) can be made constructive, it might make it seem more sincerely encouraging: rather than “it’s probably bad for you to do this kind of work”, saying “I actually think that you might not be as well suited to this kind of work as others in the EA community because others are better at [specific thing], but from [strength X] and [strength Y] that I’ve noticed, I wonder if you’ve considered [type of work T] or [type of work S]?” (I know that you were paraphrasing and wouldn’t say those actual phrases to people)
For feedback of type b), my gut reaction is that basically no one should be given feedback of that type because of the risk if you’re wrong as you say, but also because of the risk of exacerbating feelings that only sufficiently impressive people are welcome in EA. I guess it depends whether you mean “you’re a valued member of this community, but not competitive for a job in the community” or “you’re not good enough to be a member of this community”. I agree that some people should be given the first type of feedback if you’re sure enough, but I don’t think anyone should be told they’re not good enough to join the community.
I think I have a fairly different attitude towards feedback compared to you and some of the other commenters. My generally view is that subject to time constraints, giving and receiving lots of feedback is both individually and institutionally healthier, and also we should be more willing to give low-quality and low-certainty feedback when we’re not sure (and disclaim that we’re not sure) rather than leave things unsaid.
In general I think people aren’t correctly modeling that constructive feedback is both time and emotionally costly, and 1) suggesting more roadblocks to making it harder to deliver such feedback makes our community worse and 2) what happens when you don’t give negative feedback isn’t that people are slightly deluded but overall emotionally happier. People’s emotions adjust and a fair number of junior EAs basically act like they’re stepping on eggshells because they don’t know if what they’re doing is perceived as bad/dumb because nobody would tell them.