Something weird and unexpected like the NO pathway could explain why cats on vegan diets still get health issues as the pro-vegan study Elizabeth linked to shows.
But we have the same uncertainty with retail meat-based cat food, which I’ve highlighted is quite distinct from what cats evolved on.
An escape hatch from this would of course be lab grown meat that is to the molecule identical to meat.
I don’t understand the obeisance to molecularly-exact meat. Evolution doesn’t select for health and well being. It selects for propagation for a specific niche in a specific environment. Our goals with domestic cats are different than what evolution optimized for.
Consider human evolution. For most of it, life expectancy was far lower than today. The diet of prehistoric times isn’t by default aspirational. Instead, current nutrition studies focus on health outcomes, e.g. life expectancy, blood pressure, rate of obesity, etc.
So recommendations focus directly on cause (food eaten) and effect (health outcomes). And that’s what we should do with cats. We should not put meat on a pedestal and beeline for that.
But we have the same uncertainty with retail meat-based cat food, which I’ve highlighted is quite distinct from what cats evolved on.
Actually, I think we don’t have the same uncertainty. Those products have been iterated on for a far longer time than vegan cat food—including multiple FDA recalls as you pointed out. We’ve had much more of a “trial-by-fire” of retail meat-based cat food over a longer period of time.
Though in the other comment you pointed out Ami, which given it has existed for 20 years, I imagine has gone through the same trial-by-fire. A new post that does nothing but focus on the evidence that Ami is fine for your cat would probably convince a ton more people. As I mentioned in my other comment I’m very confused why Ami wasn’t used in the Domínguez-Oliva et al. Study instead.
I don’t understand the obeisance to molecularly-exact meat.
I’m not interested in molecularly-exact meat. I’m interested in what—via strong empirical evidence—we know wont harm my cat.
Our goals with domestic cats are different than what evolution optimized for.
Couldn’t agree more, which is why, if we get enough empirical evidence that some particular vegan meal will be ay-ok for cats I’m all aboard.
It is worth adding that I do think we have enough empirical evidence to place dogs on a vegan diet without issue. But my read of the study is we’re not there with cats yet. I really don’t understand why the study authors make the same conclusion for both cats and dogs. The evidence appears to clearly be vastly stronger for dogs than it is for cats.
We should not put meat on a pedestal and beeline for that.
We should put empirical evidence on a pedestal and while truth-seeking be neutral about whether that includes or excludes meat.
Thanks Cornelis, I agree about the empirical evidence. And indeed, emphasizing Ami and how long it’s been around would have obviated a lot of confusion here.
We seem to disagree about (1) the variance of meat-based retail products versus vegan ones and (2) whether or not the “trial-by-fire” standard is more helpful than just simply the criteria that AAFCO/FDA defines regarding nutritional, toxicity, digestibility, and safety.
(1) Sounds like your priors for the intra-variance of meat-based cat food are lower than the inter-variance between validated meat and vegan cat food. I don’t share these same priors, and the best I can offer is Chapter 6 of After Meat where I explain in detail how I think about nutrition including the fungibility of food. Long story short, I really don’t think there’s anything special nutritionally about meat that can’t be recapitulated elsewhere, but I understand that not everyone has that intuition.
(2) AAFCO updates their standards in light of new evidence. The “trial-by-fire” is baked into their standards. And I suspect if we had similar priors regarding (1), this point may be moot.
But I appreciate your good faith, and I’ll leave it here.
But we have the same uncertainty with retail meat-based cat food, which I’ve highlighted is quite distinct from what cats evolved on.
I don’t understand the obeisance to molecularly-exact meat. Evolution doesn’t select for health and well being. It selects for propagation for a specific niche in a specific environment. Our goals with domestic cats are different than what evolution optimized for.
Consider human evolution. For most of it, life expectancy was far lower than today. The diet of prehistoric times isn’t by default aspirational. Instead, current nutrition studies focus on health outcomes, e.g. life expectancy, blood pressure, rate of obesity, etc.
So recommendations focus directly on cause (food eaten) and effect (health outcomes). And that’s what we should do with cats. We should not put meat on a pedestal and beeline for that.
Actually, I think we don’t have the same uncertainty. Those products have been iterated on for a far longer time than vegan cat food—including multiple FDA recalls as you pointed out. We’ve had much more of a “trial-by-fire” of retail meat-based cat food over a longer period of time.
Though in the other comment you pointed out Ami, which given it has existed for 20 years, I imagine has gone through the same trial-by-fire. A new post that does nothing but focus on the evidence that Ami is fine for your cat would probably convince a ton more people. As I mentioned in my other comment I’m very confused why Ami wasn’t used in the Domínguez-Oliva et al. Study instead.
I’m not interested in molecularly-exact meat. I’m interested in what—via strong empirical evidence—we know wont harm my cat.
Couldn’t agree more, which is why, if we get enough empirical evidence that some particular vegan meal will be ay-ok for cats I’m all aboard.
It is worth adding that I do think we have enough empirical evidence to place dogs on a vegan diet without issue. But my read of the study is we’re not there with cats yet. I really don’t understand why the study authors make the same conclusion for both cats and dogs. The evidence appears to clearly be vastly stronger for dogs than it is for cats.
We should put empirical evidence on a pedestal and while truth-seeking be neutral about whether that includes or excludes meat.
Thanks Cornelis, I agree about the empirical evidence. And indeed, emphasizing Ami and how long it’s been around would have obviated a lot of confusion here.
We seem to disagree about (1) the variance of meat-based retail products versus vegan ones and (2) whether or not the “trial-by-fire” standard is more helpful than just simply the criteria that AAFCO/FDA defines regarding nutritional, toxicity, digestibility, and safety.
(1) Sounds like your priors for the intra-variance of meat-based cat food are lower than the inter-variance between validated meat and vegan cat food. I don’t share these same priors, and the best I can offer is Chapter 6 of After Meat where I explain in detail how I think about nutrition including the fungibility of food. Long story short, I really don’t think there’s anything special nutritionally about meat that can’t be recapitulated elsewhere, but I understand that not everyone has that intuition.
(2) AAFCO updates their standards in light of new evidence. The “trial-by-fire” is baked into their standards. And I suspect if we had similar priors regarding (1), this point may be moot.
But I appreciate your good faith, and I’ll leave it here.