I haven’t spent much time thinking about this: I have a sense that maybe the most important thing to promote when it comes people keeping cats is not to make cat feed vegan, but to keep cats indoors. There are statistics showing that cats allowed outdoor kill mulitple (>1) small mammal/bird per day, and often in slow and torturous ways, which makes it very easily more suffering caused than their meat consuption in a day if they consumed land animal meat.
Also, if cats are not fed natural meat, is there a chance they might hunt more, if allowed outdoors?
Also, maybe keeping cats indoors is easier to promote than feeding them vegan feed?
Consider buying an anti-hunting colar or bib in case you don’t know these are options! Make sure whenever they are let out to play you put the bib/colar on first.
All the joy of playing with your cat outside and feeling like a cool cat dad giving your cat-kids what they want, with none of the guilt!
Having observed a cat play with a bib on outside, I have a hard time thinking most cats would be very sad with one on.
Consider also the power of operant conditioning to positively affect the valenced experience of having a bib/collar on for said cat. Our family got new cats that hated their cat harnesses at first (used to go on walks with them since we’re concerned they’ll run into the highway nearby). However, they REALLY like going outside. Having the harnesses on became associated with interesting walks outside, so now when I pick up the harnesses they come towards me and don’t fight when I put it on.
Granted, this clearly varies by cat. I remember one cat we had that just absolutely hated his collar. Try as we might, he always fought it and was clearly constantly trying to get it off. So we gave up.
I had one that we would observe stalking their prey. And then before getting closer they would move the bell such that it was behind their head, tucked so that it couldn’t make noise anymore.
Re keeping cats indoors: I believe that all animals deserve to be free, and more specifically, that I, as the cat guardian, do not have the moral right to them confined*. I would be interested to hear your counter-arguments, if you would like to share.
* (Unless absolutely required for their own safety/well-being; I would keep a cat indoors only if I lived near a busy road, for example. Though in that case, I would strongly reconsider getting a cat in the first place, or make sure that the cat is an older one, that does not need to venture out as much to maintain their mental well-being).
Re keeping cats indoors: I believe that all animals deserve to be free, and more specifically, that I, as the cat guardian, do not have the moral right to them confined*. I would be interested to hear your counter-arguments, if you would like to share.
My main (maybe virtually sole) concern here is the suffering cats caused. It’s way more than the cat’s suffering being confined.
A few other comments in this post suggests that we can limit a cat’s ability to hunt and kill with certain gadgets, maybe with their use we can still let cats outside without them causing too much suffering. I am not sure.
I would strongly reconsider getting a cat in the first place
I think this is what all cat owners in the world should have done, regarding the overal suffering owning cats causes—Cats cause a lot of suffering.
I think this is what all cat owners in the world should have done, regarding the overal suffering owning cats causes—Cats cause a lot of suffering.
Do you estimate that in most of the world, cats are bought? Meaning, that more adopted cats mean more cats are bred to supply that demand? Otherwise, it shouldn’t make a difference. Quite to the contrary: a house cat that also goes outside does hunt significantly less than a stray cat (though the strays to have much shorter life spans...).
In Israel, where I live, it is definitely not—but I know it is not the case for all places. The vast majority of house cats here are stray cats that were adopted, some of them when they were found as deserted newborn (now there’s an EA dilemma: is it indeed an altruistic act to then adopt the newborn, and spend the vast resources to raise them into a then-hunting cat? ;)).
I know that in Berlin, for example, cats are normally bought and paid for, and also pure-bred (which in Israel would be considered a very immoral thing to do).
In which case you should absolutely not cause an extra pet cat to be created, given that if they are allowed to run free they will kill more small animals than they can eat.
However, I absolutely agree that cats should be spayed or neutered, as there are plenty of rescues that need a home. This is especially true where I live, where there are perhaps 10 stray cats on each house cat (in case you were worried my cat going outdoors is damaging some fragile equilibrium).
That is a bold statement, which I believe is also false. Do you have any support for that? As far as I can tell by observation (as well as common knowledge), cats do eat the vast majority of their prey (and in cases where they don’t, there is likely to be some illness with the prey, which also means a swifter death is better for it).
There are statistics showing that cats allowed outdoor kill mulitple (>1) small mammal/bird per day, and often in slow and torturous ways, which makes it very easily more suffering caused than their meat consuption in a day if they consumed land animal meat.
I think the opposite: since that outdoor prey gets to live its life freely until that moment, those few moments of suffering are nothing compared to the suffering of an animal in the food industry, that spends its whole life caged and handled. I also factor in the bigger animal’s much higher capacity for suffering.
I disagree that it’s “nothing” in comparison. It’s not as long a suffering as the factory farmed animals’ whole lives, but it’s often very prolonged (most likely longer than the average slaughter).
I tried to search for how much canned meat a cat might eat a day and did my calculations again. I revise my position: I think if a cat only eats canned cat food that is made with a high portion of chicken (>50%), eating that very likely causes more suffering than 1 small mammal/bird killed.
But if a cat eats canned food made from sheep or cow meat, or ones with very low proportion chicken, it remains very likely that eating these causes way less suffering than the cat’s hunting behavior.
I also disagree that bigger animals always have higher capacity to suffer. I think mice are quite possible to have higher capacity to suffer than chickens.
It seems that we strongly differ on the importance we give to “chronic” vs. “acute” suffering. I put much more emphasis on the first one (though both are, of course, important). And while cats do often toy with their prey, it usually is just a matter of minutes, not sure if that is what you referred to.
Re mice vs. chicken: that is a good point, I haven’t thought of that.
Re your calculations: have you read the post someone linked to in reply to one of your other comments, specifically about the suffering cats hunting causes? While I didn’t read it thoroughly, it is very illuminating, and might change your mind on the number of bird/mammals the average cat hunts.
And while it is but one sample, I can tell you that my own cat (that is very active, has access to wildlife and is a fairly good hunter) definitely does not reach that number. Most days it is just insects. A small mammal (usually a shrew, which I hate seeing as they are adorable) - possibly once every couple of weeks, recently? And until a few months ago, none, so I guess it also varies depending the season and weather.
Both can be true. We keep them more indoors and have them eat more vegan.
Also, if cats are not fed natural meat, is there a chance they might hunt more, if allowed outdoors?
Why would the “naturalness” of the food matter? Perhaps if it’s more satiating, then cats are less inclined to hunt. But satiation is independent of whether or not it’s from animal flesh.
Also, maybe keeping cats indoors is easier to promote than feeding them vegan feed?
Apologies if it’s not clear above. My main point is that we should strive to be making it easier to feed cats vegan.
Re: Source of meat: I am not sure. I was just suspecting maybe (maybe not) cats might tell from the taste better than humans? But I hope not.
It could certainly be true with initial vegan cat food recipes, but then our goal would be to figure out why cats prefer the meat option and then to close that gap by developing new vegan formulations.
Cats love veggies too, though. My cat happily munches on sweet potato, and once got my entire lunch on the floor trying to get my avocado (she succeeded :( ). I use seaweed as treats for training her, and when I sprinkle nutritional yeast on my meal she would not stop nagging until I give her some, too.
Point is, it’s not that the only taste cats interested in is meat. They have a diverse palate :)
Thank you for writing this!
I haven’t spent much time thinking about this: I have a sense that maybe the most important thing to promote when it comes people keeping cats is not to make cat feed vegan, but to keep cats indoors. There are statistics showing that cats allowed outdoor kill mulitple (>1) small mammal/bird per day, and often in slow and torturous ways, which makes it very easily more suffering caused than their meat consuption in a day if they consumed land animal meat.
Also, if cats are not fed natural meat, is there a chance they might hunt more, if allowed outdoors?
Also, maybe keeping cats indoors is easier to promote than feeding them vegan feed?
Consider buying an anti-hunting colar or bib in case you don’t know these are options! Make sure whenever they are let out to play you put the bib/colar on first.
All the joy of playing with your cat outside and feeling like a cool cat dad giving your cat-kids what they want, with none of the guilt!
I was just imagining being a cat with one of those on. I think I would be a very sad cat.
Having observed a cat play with a bib on outside, I have a hard time thinking most cats would be very sad with one on.
Consider also the power of operant conditioning to positively affect the valenced experience of having a bib/collar on for said cat. Our family got new cats that hated their cat harnesses at first (used to go on walks with them since we’re concerned they’ll run into the highway nearby). However, they REALLY like going outside. Having the harnesses on became associated with interesting walks outside, so now when I pick up the harnesses they come towards me and don’t fight when I put it on.
Granted, this clearly varies by cat. I remember one cat we had that just absolutely hated his collar. Try as we might, he always fought it and was clearly constantly trying to get it off. So we gave up.
A cat I used to have would wear a collar with a bell when she went outside. It seemed to alert all of the birds around her.
I had one that we would observe stalking their prey. And then before getting closer they would move the bell such that it was behind their head, tucked so that it couldn’t make noise anymore.
Clever girl.
Of interest: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/QwPg6C43s6wKZ2tv7/would-a-reduction-in-the-number-of-owned-cats-outdoors-in-1
Thanks for sharing!
Re keeping cats indoors: I believe that all animals deserve to be free, and more specifically, that I, as the cat guardian, do not have the moral right to them confined*. I would be interested to hear your counter-arguments, if you would like to share.
* (Unless absolutely required for their own safety/well-being; I would keep a cat indoors only if I lived near a busy road, for example. Though in that case, I would strongly reconsider getting a cat in the first place, or make sure that the cat is an older one, that does not need to venture out as much to maintain their mental well-being).
My main (maybe virtually sole) concern here is the suffering cats caused. It’s way more than the cat’s suffering being confined.
A few other comments in this post suggests that we can limit a cat’s ability to hunt and kill with certain gadgets, maybe with their use we can still let cats outside without them causing too much suffering. I am not sure.
I think this is what all cat owners in the world should have done, regarding the overal suffering owning cats causes—Cats cause a lot of suffering.
Do you estimate that in most of the world, cats are bought? Meaning, that more adopted cats mean more cats are bred to supply that demand? Otherwise, it shouldn’t make a difference. Quite to the contrary: a house cat that also goes outside does hunt significantly less than a stray cat (though the strays to have much shorter life spans...).
In Israel, where I live, it is definitely not—but I know it is not the case for all places. The vast majority of house cats here are stray cats that were adopted, some of them when they were found as deserted newborn (now there’s an EA dilemma: is it indeed an altruistic act to then adopt the newborn, and spend the vast resources to raise them into a then-hunting cat? ;)).
I know that in Berlin, for example, cats are normally bought and paid for, and also pure-bred (which in Israel would be considered a very immoral thing to do).
What is it like where you live?
In which case you should absolutely not cause an extra pet cat to be created, given that if they are allowed to run free they will kill more small animals than they can eat.
However, I absolutely agree that cats should be spayed or neutered, as there are plenty of rescues that need a home. This is especially true where I live, where there are perhaps 10 stray cats on each house cat (in case you were worried my cat going outdoors is damaging some fragile equilibrium).
That is a bold statement, which I believe is also false. Do you have any support for that? As far as I can tell by observation (as well as common knowledge), cats do eat the vast majority of their prey (and in cases where they don’t, there is likely to be some illness with the prey, which also means a swifter death is better for it).
I think the opposite: since that outdoor prey gets to live its life freely until that moment, those few moments of suffering are nothing compared to the suffering of an animal in the food industry, that spends its whole life caged and handled.
I also factor in the bigger animal’s much higher capacity for suffering.
I disagree that it’s “nothing” in comparison. It’s not as long a suffering as the factory farmed animals’ whole lives, but it’s often very prolonged (most likely longer than the average slaughter).
I tried to search for how much canned meat a cat might eat a day and did my calculations again. I revise my position: I think if a cat only eats canned cat food that is made with a high portion of chicken (>50%), eating that very likely causes more suffering than 1 small mammal/bird killed.
But if a cat eats canned food made from sheep or cow meat, or ones with very low proportion chicken, it remains very likely that eating these causes way less suffering than the cat’s hunting behavior.
I also disagree that bigger animals always have higher capacity to suffer. I think mice are quite possible to have higher capacity to suffer than chickens.
It seems that we strongly differ on the importance we give to “chronic” vs. “acute” suffering. I put much more emphasis on the first one (though both are, of course, important). And while cats do often toy with their prey, it usually is just a matter of minutes, not sure if that is what you referred to.
Re mice vs. chicken: that is a good point, I haven’t thought of that.
Re your calculations: have you read the post someone linked to in reply to one of your other comments, specifically about the suffering cats hunting causes? While I didn’t read it thoroughly, it is very illuminating, and might change your mind on the number of bird/mammals the average cat hunts.
And while it is but one sample, I can tell you that my own cat (that is very active, has access to wildlife and is a fairly good hunter) definitely does not reach that number. Most days it is just insects. A small mammal (usually a shrew, which I hate seeing as they are adorable) - possibly once every couple of weeks, recently? And until a few months ago, none, so I guess it also varies depending the season and weather.
Both can be true. We keep them more indoors and have them eat more vegan.
Why would the “naturalness” of the food matter? Perhaps if it’s more satiating, then cats are less inclined to hunt. But satiation is independent of whether or not it’s from animal flesh.
Apologies if it’s not clear above. My main point is that we should strive to be making it easier to feed cats vegan.
Yes, both can be true. I just suspect that the priority might be reducing cat’s enormous impact on wild animal suffering.
Re: Source of meat: I am not sure. I was just suspecting maybe (maybe not) cats might tell from the taste better than humans? But I hope not.
It could certainly be true with initial vegan cat food recipes, but then our goal would be to figure out why cats prefer the meat option and then to close that gap by developing new vegan formulations.
Cats love veggies too, though. My cat happily munches on sweet potato, and once got my entire lunch on the floor trying to get my avocado (she succeeded :( ). I use seaweed as treats for training her, and when I sprinkle nutritional yeast on my meal she would not stop nagging until I give her some, too.
Point is, it’s not that the only taste cats interested in is meat. They have a diverse palate :)