Feed animals close to their natural diet while researching how to do better. You dismiss this as “appeal to nature”, but I would describe it as “the burden is on the attempt to change the default”.
“Meeting nutritional requirements” is a far better default standard than what’s “natural”. Few problems with the “natural” standard:
Retail based meat cat food is far from what’s “natural” as I covered in the post.
What’s “natural” isn’t more equivalent to what’s healthy. Is a diseased bird corpse more “natural” than nutritionally-complete vegan cat food? Probably. Healthier? Hmmmm.
“Natural” is imprecise and hard to make actionable. How would an organization like AAFCO put that into words and regulations?
I assure you I am at least as obnoxious about human nutrition testing, which is better studied and features a more adaptable subject.
Yep, human nutrition is better studied. There’s more funding and more interest in the subject.
As discussed before, we’re both in agreement for more studies. Funding is needed.
I think when she said “natural diet” she didn’t mean to invoke the naturalistic fallacy.
She meant the diet that we have the most empirical evidence doesn’t harm/kill them. We have some empirical evidence that vegan diets appear to quckly give cats major bad health outcomes without supplementation? The first comment in this thread by Elizabeth pointed this out.
We don’t have empirical evidence of the same happening with meat-based diets. So modern nutritionally complete meat-based diets presently have a 100%-wont-cause-major-adverse-health-outcomes rate. Is this not what the studies seem to show?
What’s “natural” isn’t more equivalent to what’s healthy. Is a diseased bird corpse more “natural” than nutritionally-complete vegan cat food? Probably. Healthier? Hmmmm.
No, but consider statistical averages rather than semantic absolutes. If you were to consider all possible meals a cat could reaonably be fed today. On average, it seems reasonable to suspect that they would be healthier if more of those meals were meat-based than plant-based. This is an empirical question, not a semantic one. The nutritionally-complete vegan cat food might be better than the diseased corpose (one single comparison). But having nothing but the nutritionally-complete vegan cat food might be far worse than nothing but meat (statistical average across many samples).
Given how nascent the field is and how we’re only just finding out what supplementation we might have to give cats, it seems like if we were to tell everyone to feed their cat vegan food that we’d probably get a lot of cats with bad health outcomes.
And this would be pretty bad optics-wise for the vegan movement.
She meant the diet that we have the most empirical evidence doesn’t harm/kill them.
We don’t have empirical evidence of the same happening with meat-based diets.
Do we have empirical evidence that a specific meat-based food is consistently safe over many years? My understanding is that many change constantly.
So modern nutritionally complete meat-based diets presently have a 100%-wont-cause-major-adverse-health-outcomes rate. Is this not what the studies seem to show?
Best we can do is what AAFCO and FDA already do. AAFCO sets nutritional guidelines and ingredient requirements. FDA regulates the safety.
We have some empirical evidence that vegan diets appear to quckly give cats major bad health outcomes without supplementation? The first comment in this thread by Elizabeth pointed this out.
Why is that diet representative of for example nutritionally complete Ami, which has been around for years? Isn’t it much better to just defer to AAFCO’s and FDA’s standards, which Ami meets?
The most parsimonious explanation is that the lack of supplements was the problem, not the “vegan”-ness. If I get sick from my potato chip diet, it doesn’t mean I should avoid a plant-based diet with all required nutrients.
If you were to consider all possible meals a cat could reaonably be fed today. On average, it seems reasonable to suspect that they would be healthier if more of those meals were meat-based than plant-based.
Based on what? I don’t intuit this at all. Furthermore, we’re not saying any plant ingredients. We’re saying the ones that meet nutritional, toxicity, and digestibility requirements for cats.
Both you and Elizabeth have offered something fairly distinct from AAFCO’s/FDA’s standards. And so far, I’m finding neither to be better.
Given how nascent the field is and how we’re only just finding out what supplementation we might have to give cats
It’s not nascent. AAFCO has been providing guidance on the nutritional requirements for cats for decades.
For me: I agreed with you and felt like my mind was being changed to being pro-vegan-cat—until I read Elizabeth’s comment pointed out the issues in the study. So for me it is mostly because you haven’t engaged with that specific comment and pointed out why the concerns that are highlighted in her screenshots (from the actual study!) are not something that I need to worry about.
Convince Elizabeth and you, by proxy, convince me I’m pretty sure.
The most parsimonious explanation is that the lack of supplements was the problem, not the “vegan”-ness.
Sounds reasonable to me. I didn’t say that a lack of supplementation wouldn’t solve it. I argued that meat would. Arguing for X doesn’t mean I argued for ~Y.
The study came out January of this year. That’s pretty recent.
Does a nutritionally complete vegan cat food exist yet that takes everything learnt from this study and all the studies it references into account without need for additional supplementation? If yes, I’d want to see a study where cats are fed it first before I place my own cats exclusively on it. Till then I’d probably be too paranoid to feed them a fully vegan diet.
Why is that diet representative of for example nutritionally complete Ami, which has been around for years? Isn’t it much better to just defer to AAFCO’s and FDA’s standards, which Ami meets?
I’m confused. By “that diet” you mean to say the diet that was tested in the actual study you use as support for your claims should not be taken as an example of something nutritionally complete?
Ok, after trying to figure out what “Ami” was I see in your post you refer to it as vegan cat food that exists on the market.
Apparently it has also been around for 20 years after a quick Google search. Now I’m just hyper-confused why Ami wasn’t used in the Domínguez-Oliva et al. Study instead.
Thanks Cornelis, I sincerely appreciate the good will shown.
For me: I agreed with you and felt like my mind was being changed to being pro-vegan-cat—until I read Elizabeth’s comment pointed out the issues in the study. So for me it is mostly because you haven’t engaged with that specific comment and pointed out why the concerns that are highlighted in her screenshots (from the actual study!) are not something that I need to worry about.
I conceded on Domínguez-Oliva et al., and Elizabeth’s concerns were entirely valid. However, it’s one study and one diet, and I felt that Elizabeth was ignoring the basis of nutrition and biochemistry that I emphasized throughout the post. Thanks for highlighting that the food was lacking necessary, known supplements. That was a key point that would have been helpful to broach earlier.
A RCT study will likely be just a formality for something like the Ami vegan cat food. And yes, it’s frustrating that this hasn’t been done/published yet! As I understand from Andrew Knight, there’s a better study coming out this year.
Convince Elizabeth and you, by proxy, convince me I’m pretty sure.
I haven’t found Elizabeth willing to falsify their thinking as much as you and perceive general antagonism and defensiveness.
“Meeting nutritional requirements” is a far better default standard than what’s “natural”. Few problems with the “natural” standard:
Retail based meat cat food is far from what’s “natural” as I covered in the post.
What’s “natural” isn’t more equivalent to what’s healthy. Is a diseased bird corpse more “natural” than nutritionally-complete vegan cat food? Probably. Healthier? Hmmmm.
“Natural” is imprecise and hard to make actionable. How would an organization like AAFCO put that into words and regulations?
Yep, human nutrition is better studied. There’s more funding and more interest in the subject.
As discussed before, we’re both in agreement for more studies. Funding is needed.
I think when she said “natural diet” she didn’t mean to invoke the naturalistic fallacy.
She meant the diet that we have the most empirical evidence doesn’t harm/kill them. We have some empirical evidence that vegan diets appear to quckly give cats major bad health outcomes without supplementation? The first comment in this thread by Elizabeth pointed this out.
We don’t have empirical evidence of the same happening with meat-based diets. So modern nutritionally complete meat-based diets presently have a 100%-wont-cause-major-adverse-health-outcomes rate. Is this not what the studies seem to show?
No, but consider statistical averages rather than semantic absolutes. If you were to consider all possible meals a cat could reaonably be fed today. On average, it seems reasonable to suspect that they would be healthier if more of those meals were meat-based than plant-based. This is an empirical question, not a semantic one. The nutritionally-complete vegan cat food might be better than the diseased corpose (one single comparison). But having nothing but the nutritionally-complete vegan cat food might be far worse than nothing but meat (statistical average across many samples).
Given how nascent the field is and how we’re only just finding out what supplementation we might have to give cats, it seems like if we were to tell everyone to feed their cat vegan food that we’d probably get a lot of cats with bad health outcomes.
And this would be pretty bad optics-wise for the vegan movement.
Do we have empirical evidence that a specific meat-based food is consistently safe over many years? My understanding is that many change constantly.
Not really. Check out the recall withdrawals over the year: https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/recalls-withdrawals
Best we can do is what AAFCO and FDA already do. AAFCO sets nutritional guidelines and ingredient requirements. FDA regulates the safety.
Why is that diet representative of for example nutritionally complete Ami, which has been around for years? Isn’t it much better to just defer to AAFCO’s and FDA’s standards, which Ami meets?
The most parsimonious explanation is that the lack of supplements was the problem, not the “vegan”-ness. If I get sick from my potato chip diet, it doesn’t mean I should avoid a plant-based diet with all required nutrients.
Based on what? I don’t intuit this at all. Furthermore, we’re not saying any plant ingredients. We’re saying the ones that meet nutritional, toxicity, and digestibility requirements for cats.
Both you and Elizabeth have offered something fairly distinct from AAFCO’s/FDA’s standards. And so far, I’m finding neither to be better.
It’s not nascent. AAFCO has been providing guidance on the nutritional requirements for cats for decades.
For me: I agreed with you and felt like my mind was being changed to being pro-vegan-cat—until I read Elizabeth’s comment pointed out the issues in the study. So for me it is mostly because you haven’t engaged with that specific comment and pointed out why the concerns that are highlighted in her screenshots (from the actual study!) are not something that I need to worry about.
Convince Elizabeth and you, by proxy, convince me I’m pretty sure.
Sounds reasonable to me. I didn’t say that a lack of supplementation wouldn’t solve it. I argued that meat would. Arguing for X doesn’t mean I argued for ~Y.
The study came out January of this year. That’s pretty recent.
Does a nutritionally complete vegan cat food exist yet that takes everything learnt from this study and all the studies it references into account without need for additional supplementation? If yes, I’d want to see a study where cats are fed it first before I place my own cats exclusively on it. Till then I’d probably be too paranoid to feed them a fully vegan diet.
I’m confused. By “that diet” you mean to say the diet that was tested in the actual study you use as support for your claims should not be taken as an example of something nutritionally complete?
Ok, after trying to figure out what “Ami” was I see in your post you refer to it as vegan cat food that exists on the market.
Apparently it has also been around for 20 years after a quick Google search. Now I’m just hyper-confused why Ami wasn’t used in the Domínguez-Oliva et al. Study instead.
Thanks Cornelis, I sincerely appreciate the good will shown.
I conceded on Domínguez-Oliva et al., and Elizabeth’s concerns were entirely valid. However, it’s one study and one diet, and I felt that Elizabeth was ignoring the basis of nutrition and biochemistry that I emphasized throughout the post. Thanks for highlighting that the food was lacking necessary, known supplements. That was a key point that would have been helpful to broach earlier.
A RCT study will likely be just a formality for something like the Ami vegan cat food. And yes, it’s frustrating that this hasn’t been done/published yet! As I understand from Andrew Knight, there’s a better study coming out this year.
I haven’t found Elizabeth willing to falsify their thinking as much as you and perceive general antagonism and defensiveness.