For example, you briefly mention free will, quantum systems, Adler, and social mobility. None of these topics are covered in much depth, and they don’t support your central claim regardless. You explicitly say we should consider ourselves as personally responsible whether or not we actually have free will. But if it doesn’t matter whether or not we have free will, then don’t bring it up.
Discussing quantum systems was also not helpful. Few people have any familiarity with quantum systems, so it’s like explaining World War II in terms of Kabbalistic interpretations of the Bible. You shouldn’t expect people to say, “Ahh, now I get it!” In general, it’s better to explain things we don’t know in terms of things we do know. Not the other way around. And you definitely don’t need to invoke quantum systems to get people to understand that groups of people can exhibit patterns that are hard to predict when looking at individuals.
2. Dubious social science.
For the past decade, the social sciences have been undergoing a crisis of confidence. Many studies are fraudulent or the result of shoddy theory, methods, and analysis. Growth mindset has been a prominent target of these concerns. And though I haven’t read the links to Rotter’s and Bandura’s research, it seems your summary of them doesn’t strongly support your main claim. You say there’s a correlation between believing in yourself and achieving success, therefore we should believe in ourselves. But there’s a confound here: The people who believe in themselves are more likely to have the knowledge, skills, and resources necessary to achieve success. So perhaps those are the things that drive success, not the mere belief in oneself.
3. Unclear argument for a double standard.
It seems like you take a scattershot approach to arguing against holding others responsible. I see a few possible arguments someone could take away from the post:
a) When holding others responsible we will often fail to consider (systemic) factors that were not in the others’ control.
b) Holding others responsible requires believing everyone will be their best selves, which is unrealistic.
c) Holding others responsible assumes we live in a meritocracy, which is unrealistic.
It’s unclear which of these you think the reader should pay most attention to, and you don’t elaborate much on any of the arguments enough to make them compelling.
Thanks so much for your reply, I really appreciate you taking the time to critique the post in so much detail. I have taken your points on board and have actually edited the page on the site to try and address many of your concerns. It was largely a restructure of the content with some clarifications and elaborations. I moved the Adler material all into the same section, to allow the reader to sit with him for a bit rather than getting a taste and having to wait til the end to get the point (I often struggle with expecting readers to wait for a payoff without making it clear that a payoff is coming, and by the time it comes they’ve lost the logical connection). I also moved the philosophical digression to the end as it’s more a big picture idea that broke the flow of the main argument, I also clarified that how taking a purely determinist or free-will philosophical approach is not productive in this particular issue.
I’ve tried to make the double standard as clear as possible, putting it in a blockquote box, and reiterating it at the end. The a, b, c, d points you make are all messages I want the reader to take away, but I see them all rather as reasons for taking on the positive double standard. No one of them is meant to be of particular focus, but rather they are all reasons from different angles that point to the same solution.
Regarding the crisis of confidence (I don’t expect you to read the related material / footnotes) but I had included a mention in the footnotes.
I have also pointed towards evidence for the efficacy of a philosophy of ‘personal responsibility’ knowing that the positive psychology of Martin Seligman has come under question in recent years. I feel that, as I am using it essentially as a counterpoint to my argument, it’s appropriate to present it charitably.
My main point is not that people should necessarily take on self-help ideology / ‘personal responsibility”, but rather that if they do, they shouldn’t then demand ‘personal responsibility’ in this way from society. I was making the case for the efficacy of personal responsibility on an individual level only to be fair to those who find it effective, so I was being charitable to the research that supported this. So, I accept your criticisms about this and largely agree.
Again I really appreciate your reply. I was a little baffled why the votes were so negative to what I thought was a fairly positive post that I assumed would resonate with the EA community. It’s nice in a way to hear that the response may have been mostly to do with bad writing rather than a bad idea.
Hey there, if you happen to disagree with this idea, please post a comment, I’m a little confused as to the downvotes, so would love to know what the disagreement is, after all a downvote doesn’t really constitute a valid rebuttal, in fact neither do many downvotes :)
I downvoted this post for a few reasons.
1. The post meanders too much.
For example, you briefly mention free will, quantum systems, Adler, and social mobility. None of these topics are covered in much depth, and they don’t support your central claim regardless. You explicitly say we should consider ourselves as personally responsible whether or not we actually have free will. But if it doesn’t matter whether or not we have free will, then don’t bring it up.
Discussing quantum systems was also not helpful. Few people have any familiarity with quantum systems, so it’s like explaining World War II in terms of Kabbalistic interpretations of the Bible. You shouldn’t expect people to say, “Ahh, now I get it!” In general, it’s better to explain things we don’t know in terms of things we do know. Not the other way around. And you definitely don’t need to invoke quantum systems to get people to understand that groups of people can exhibit patterns that are hard to predict when looking at individuals.
2. Dubious social science.
For the past decade, the social sciences have been undergoing a crisis of confidence. Many studies are fraudulent or the result of shoddy theory, methods, and analysis. Growth mindset has been a prominent target of these concerns. And though I haven’t read the links to Rotter’s and Bandura’s research, it seems your summary of them doesn’t strongly support your main claim. You say there’s a correlation between believing in yourself and achieving success, therefore we should believe in ourselves. But there’s a confound here: The people who believe in themselves are more likely to have the knowledge, skills, and resources necessary to achieve success. So perhaps those are the things that drive success, not the mere belief in oneself.
3. Unclear argument for a double standard.
It seems like you take a scattershot approach to arguing against holding others responsible. I see a few possible arguments someone could take away from the post:
a) When holding others responsible we will often fail to consider (systemic) factors that were not in the others’ control.
b) Holding others responsible requires believing everyone will be their best selves, which is unrealistic.
c) Holding others responsible assumes we live in a meritocracy, which is unrealistic.
d) Holding others responsible doesn’t fix society-wide issues.
It’s unclear which of these you think the reader should pay most attention to, and you don’t elaborate much on any of the arguments enough to make them compelling.
Hi Nathan,
Thanks so much for your reply, I really appreciate you taking the time to critique the post in so much detail. I have taken your points on board and have actually edited the page on the site to try and address many of your concerns. It was largely a restructure of the content with some clarifications and elaborations. I moved the Adler material all into the same section, to allow the reader to sit with him for a bit rather than getting a taste and having to wait til the end to get the point (I often struggle with expecting readers to wait for a payoff without making it clear that a payoff is coming, and by the time it comes they’ve lost the logical connection). I also moved the philosophical digression to the end as it’s more a big picture idea that broke the flow of the main argument, I also clarified that how taking a purely determinist or free-will philosophical approach is not productive in this particular issue.
I’ve tried to make the double standard as clear as possible, putting it in a blockquote box, and reiterating it at the end. The a, b, c, d points you make are all messages I want the reader to take away, but I see them all rather as reasons for taking on the positive double standard. No one of them is meant to be of particular focus, but rather they are all reasons from different angles that point to the same solution.
Regarding the crisis of confidence (I don’t expect you to read the related material / footnotes) but I had included a mention in the footnotes.
My main point is not that people should necessarily take on self-help ideology / ‘personal responsibility”, but rather that if they do, they shouldn’t then demand ‘personal responsibility’ in this way from society. I was making the case for the efficacy of personal responsibility on an individual level only to be fair to those who find it effective, so I was being charitable to the research that supported this. So, I accept your criticisms about this and largely agree.
Again I really appreciate your reply. I was a little baffled why the votes were so negative to what I thought was a fairly positive post that I assumed would resonate with the EA community. It’s nice in a way to hear that the response may have been mostly to do with bad writing rather than a bad idea.
Hey there, if you happen to disagree with this idea, please post a comment, I’m a little confused as to the downvotes, so would love to know what the disagreement is, after all a downvote doesn’t really constitute a valid rebuttal, in fact neither do many downvotes :)