I would say thinking of something funny is often pleasurable. Similarly, thinking of something sad can be unpleasant. And this thinking can just be inner speech (rather than visual imagination)....Also, people can just be in good or bad moods, which could be pleasant and unpleasant, respectively, but not really consistently simultaneous with any particular sensations.
I think most of those things actually can be reduced to sensations; moods can’t be, but then, are moods consciously experienced, or do they only predispose us to interpret conscious experiences more positively or negatively?
(Edit: another set of sensations you might overlook when you think about conscious experience of mood are your bodily sensations: heart rate, skin conductivity, etc.)
But this also seems like the thing that’s more morally important to look into directly. Maybe frogs’ vision is blindsight, their touch and hearing are unconscious, etc., so they aren’t motivated to engage in sensory play, but they might still benefit from conscious unpleasantness and aversion for more sophisticated strategies to avoid them. And they might still benefit from conscious pleasure for more sophisticated strategies to pursue pleasure.
They “might” do, sure, but what’s your expectation they in fact will experience conscious pleasantness devoid of sensations? High enough to not write it off entirely, to make it worthwhile to experiment on, and to be cautious about how we treat those organisms in the meantime—sure. I think we can agree on that.
But perhaps we’ve reached a sort of crux here: is it possible, or probable, that organisms could experience conscious pleasure or pain without conscious sensation? It seems like a worthwhile question. After reading Humphrey I feel like it’s certainly possible, but I’d give it maybe around 0.35 probability. As I said in OP, I would value more research in this area to try to give us more certainty.
If your probability that conscious pleasure and pain can exist without conscious sensation is, say, over 0.8 or so, I’d be curious about what leads you to believe that with confidence.
I think most of those things actually can be reduced to sensations
What do you mean by “reduced to”? It’s tricky to avoid confounding here, because we’re constantly aware of sensations and our experiences of pleasure and unpleasantness seem typically associated with sensations. But I would guess that pleasure and unpleasantness aren’t always because of the conscious sensations, but these can have the same unconscious perceptions as a common cause.
Apparently even conscious physical pain affect (unpleasantness) can occur without pain sensation, but this is not normal and recorded cases seem to be the result of brain damage (Ploner et al., 1999, Uhelski et al., 2012).
moods can’t be, but then, are moods consciously experienced, or do they only predispose us to interpret conscious experiences more positively or negatively?
I’m not sure, and that’s a great question! Seems pretty likely these are just dispositions. I was also thinking of separation anxiety as an unpleasant experience with no specific sensations in other animals (assuming they can’t imagine their parents, when they are away), but this could just be more like a mood that disposes them to interpret their perceptions or sensations more negatively/threatening.
They “might” do, sure, but what’s your expectation they in fact will experience conscious pleasantness devoid of sensations? (...) If your probability that conscious pleasure and pain can exist without conscious sensation is, say, over 0.8 or so, I’d be curious about what leads you to believe that with confidence.
Thanks for pushing on this. There are multiple standards at which I could answer this, and it would depend on what I (or we) want “conscious” to mean.
With relatively high standards for consciousness like Humphrey seems to be using, or something else at least as strict as having a robust global workspace (with some standard executive functions, like working memory or voluntary attention control), I’d assign maybe 70%-95% probability to the in principle possibility based on introspection, studies of pain affect without pain sensation, and imagining direct stimulation of pleasure systems, or with drugs or meditation. However, I’d be very surprised (<15%) if there’s any species with conscious pleasure or unpleasantness without the species generally also having conscious sensations. It doesn’t seem useful for an animal to be conscious of pleasure or unpleasantness without also being conscious of their causes, which seems to require conscious sensation. Plus, whatever mechanisms are necessary for consciousness per se could be used for both perceptions/sensations and pleasure.
With low standards, e.g. a sensation is a perception + a belief that the perception matters, and pleasure is a positive judgement (as a belief), and low standards for what counts as a belief, I’d be less confident either way for both the in principle and in practice questions. I’d mostly have in mind similar intuitions, arguments and other evidence as above, but the evidence just seems weaker and less reliable here. But I’d also be more confident that frogs, fish and invertebrates have conscious pleasure and unpleasantness and conscious sensations.
You could also mix low standards for one but high standards for the other, but I’d give these possibilities less weight.
But I would guess that pleasure and unpleasantness isn’t always because of the conscious sensations, but these can have the same unconscious perceptions as a common cause.
This sounds right. My claim is that there are all sorts of unconscious perceptions an valenced processing going on in the brain, but all of that is only experienced consciously once there’s a certain kind of recurrent cortical processing of the signal which can loosely be described as “sensation”. I mean that very loosely; it even can include memories of physical events or semantic thought (which you might understand as a sort of recall of auditory processing). Without that recurrent cortical processing modeling the reward and learning process, probably all that midbrain dopaminergic activity does not get consciously perceived. Perhaps it does, indirectly, when the dopaminergic activity (or lack thereof) influences the sorts of sensations you have.
But I’m getting really speculative here. I’m an empiricist and my main contention is that there’s a live issue with unknowns and researchers should figure out what sort of empirical tests might resolve some of these questions, and then collect data to test all this out.
I think most of those things actually can be reduced to sensations; moods can’t be, but then, are moods consciously experienced, or do they only predispose us to interpret conscious experiences more positively or negatively?
(Edit: another set of sensations you might overlook when you think about conscious experience of mood are your bodily sensations: heart rate, skin conductivity, etc.)
They “might” do, sure, but what’s your expectation they in fact will experience conscious pleasantness devoid of sensations? High enough to not write it off entirely, to make it worthwhile to experiment on, and to be cautious about how we treat those organisms in the meantime—sure. I think we can agree on that.
But perhaps we’ve reached a sort of crux here: is it possible, or probable, that organisms could experience conscious pleasure or pain without conscious sensation? It seems like a worthwhile question. After reading Humphrey I feel like it’s certainly possible, but I’d give it maybe around 0.35 probability. As I said in OP, I would value more research in this area to try to give us more certainty.
If your probability that conscious pleasure and pain can exist without conscious sensation is, say, over 0.8 or so, I’d be curious about what leads you to believe that with confidence.
What do you mean by “reduced to”? It’s tricky to avoid confounding here, because we’re constantly aware of sensations and our experiences of pleasure and unpleasantness seem typically associated with sensations. But I would guess that pleasure and unpleasantness aren’t always because of the conscious sensations, but these can have the same unconscious perceptions as a common cause.
Apparently even conscious physical pain affect (unpleasantness) can occur without pain sensation, but this is not normal and recorded cases seem to be the result of brain damage (Ploner et al., 1999, Uhelski et al., 2012).
I’m not sure, and that’s a great question! Seems pretty likely these are just dispositions. I was also thinking of separation anxiety as an unpleasant experience with no specific sensations in other animals (assuming they can’t imagine their parents, when they are away), but this could just be more like a mood that disposes them to interpret their perceptions or sensations more negatively/threatening.
Thanks for pushing on this. There are multiple standards at which I could answer this, and it would depend on what I (or we) want “conscious” to mean.
With relatively high standards for consciousness like Humphrey seems to be using, or something else at least as strict as having a robust global workspace (with some standard executive functions, like working memory or voluntary attention control), I’d assign maybe 70%-95% probability to the in principle possibility based on introspection, studies of pain affect without pain sensation, and imagining direct stimulation of pleasure systems, or with drugs or meditation. However, I’d be very surprised (<15%) if there’s any species with conscious pleasure or unpleasantness without the species generally also having conscious sensations. It doesn’t seem useful for an animal to be conscious of pleasure or unpleasantness without also being conscious of their causes, which seems to require conscious sensation. Plus, whatever mechanisms are necessary for consciousness per se could be used for both perceptions/sensations and pleasure.
With low standards, e.g. a sensation is a perception + a belief that the perception matters, and pleasure is a positive judgement (as a belief), and low standards for what counts as a belief, I’d be less confident either way for both the in principle and in practice questions. I’d mostly have in mind similar intuitions, arguments and other evidence as above, but the evidence just seems weaker and less reliable here. But I’d also be more confident that frogs, fish and invertebrates have conscious pleasure and unpleasantness and conscious sensations.
You could also mix low standards for one but high standards for the other, but I’d give these possibilities less weight.
This sounds right. My claim is that there are all sorts of unconscious perceptions an valenced processing going on in the brain, but all of that is only experienced consciously once there’s a certain kind of recurrent cortical processing of the signal which can loosely be described as “sensation”. I mean that very loosely; it even can include memories of physical events or semantic thought (which you might understand as a sort of recall of auditory processing). Without that recurrent cortical processing modeling the reward and learning process, probably all that midbrain dopaminergic activity does not get consciously perceived. Perhaps it does, indirectly, when the dopaminergic activity (or lack thereof) influences the sorts of sensations you have.
But I’m getting really speculative here. I’m an empiricist and my main contention is that there’s a live issue with unknowns and researchers should figure out what sort of empirical tests might resolve some of these questions, and then collect data to test all this out.