Richard, I do agree that the “indifferent to making happy people” view can lead to that sort of conclusion, that sounds indeed nihilistic. But I find it hard to find good arguments against it. I don’t find it obvious to say that a situation where there’s beings who are experiencing something is better than a situation where there’s no beings to experience anything at all. Reason 1) is that no one suffers from that absence of experience, reason 2) is that at least this also guarantees that there’s no horrible suffering. This might be very counterintuitive to some (or many) but I also feel that as soon as there is one creature suffering horrible for a prolonged amount of time, it might maybe be better to have nothing at all (see e.g. Omelas: do we want that world or would we rather having nothing at all?)
Hi Tobias, thanks for this. I’m curious: can you find “good arguments” against full-blown nihilism? I think nihilism is very difficult to argue against, except by pointing to the bedrock moral convictions it is incompatible with. So that’s really all I’m trying to do here. (See also my reply to Michael.)
I don’t find it obvious to say that a situation where there’s beings who are experiencing something is better than a situation where there’s no beings to experience anything at all.
Just to clarify: it depends on the experiences (and more, since I’m not a hedonist). Some lives would be worse than nothing at all. But yeah, if you just don’t share the intuition that utopia is better than a barren rock then I don’t expect anything else I have to say here will be very persuasive to you.
Reason 1) is that no one suffers from that absence of experience
But isn’t that presupposing the suffering is all that matters? I’m trying to pump the intuition that good things matter too.
2) is that at least this also guarantees that there’s no horrible suffering.
Yep, I’ll grant that: horrible suffering is really, really bad, so there’s at least that to be said for the barren rock. :-)
Richard, I do agree that the “indifferent to making happy people” view can lead to that sort of conclusion, that sounds indeed nihilistic. But I find it hard to find good arguments against it. I don’t find it obvious to say that a situation where there’s beings who are experiencing something is better than a situation where there’s no beings to experience anything at all. Reason 1) is that no one suffers from that absence of experience, reason 2) is that at least this also guarantees that there’s no horrible suffering. This might be very counterintuitive to some (or many) but I also feel that as soon as there is one creature suffering horrible for a prolonged amount of time, it might maybe be better to have nothing at all (see e.g. Omelas: do we want that world or would we rather having nothing at all?)
Hi Tobias, thanks for this. I’m curious: can you find “good arguments” against full-blown nihilism? I think nihilism is very difficult to argue against, except by pointing to the bedrock moral convictions it is incompatible with. So that’s really all I’m trying to do here. (See also my reply to Michael.)
Just to clarify: it depends on the experiences (and more, since I’m not a hedonist). Some lives would be worse than nothing at all. But yeah, if you just don’t share the intuition that utopia is better than a barren rock then I don’t expect anything else I have to say here will be very persuasive to you.
But isn’t that presupposing the suffering is all that matters? I’m trying to pump the intuition that good things matter too.
Yep, I’ll grant that: horrible suffering is really, really bad, so there’s at least that to be said for the barren rock. :-)