I’m currently studying law at Usyd with the intention of going into policy. Very happy to have a call if you think that would help! Just send through a message :)
I don’t have work experience in government, nor do I have much sense of what an MPP involves or how they are viewed, but I do have a few thoughts/​bits of information that might help:
For going into policy, most of what you study in a law degree will not be relevant. It does help develop a general sense of how the law works, what some of its difficulties are (from a policy perspective) and how legislation and regulations are interpreted by courts. I’m not sure how helpful that sense is, but my sense is not particularly.
It’s particularly difficult to get good grades at a top law school (e.g. most students received ATARs of 99+ and the median marks are often 65-70), though my impression is it’s easier in second tier law schools. Of my friends who studied law and economics, even those who were far stronger verbally, had significantly higher marks in econ than law (85 avg econ seems comparable to 70 in law for those with similar aptitudes). I don’t know how comparable econ is to an MPP.
For policy careers, the advice I’ve received is that your experience is more important than your educational background. Good grades/​degree might be a threshold requirement, but the predominant interest is in your ability to be able to discuss relevant work or extra-curricular experience.
I’m not sure how to think about going into politics! I agree that law backgrounds seem common, and I imagine being involved in party politics and student politics at a prestigious uni might be helpful.
I suspect even with lower aptitude for maths, the basic statistics and economics subjects should be manageable (if they are introductory) and at least I personally regret not having been able to study them as my sense is they are actually relevant to a significant amount of policy work.
Thanks for the feedback Michael! I think that your points are very helpful.
1: I thought this might be the case. Legal education seems very broad, with many subjects primarily intended to prepare students for the practice of law.
2: You may indeed be right, because the cohort I’ve been competing with in philosophy (largely those studying a Bachelor of Arts) generally don’t have strong ATARs. On the other hand, I feel like philosophy is one of the better majors for enhancing one’s analytical skills, so I think I have a leg up on the other members of the JD cohort. I think it’s around 12% of students who receive HDs at most law schools, which doesn’t seem impossible.
Just to clarify, I’ve already finished my undergraduate degree, so I can’t study an LLB. This means I would have to take a full fee place in a JD, which obviously makes it less appealing. On the bright side, one still receives Centrelink for the duration of the JD. One does not while studying an MPP, which is very significant.
3: Definitely a good point, and I have heard that as well. This may be a point in favour of joining the APS generalist stream, if I can get in. Am I right in assuming that you are studying law in undergrad? Are you considering any of the APS graduate streams after completing your degree? Would you consider them if you had already completed a Bachelor of Arts?
4: I am really uncertain about this too. On the face of it, you don’t often hear about politicians having spent extended periods of time working for the APS in Canberra. However, some of them may have spent a few years there before moving to a major city. I’m not sure how transferrable the career capital one gains in the APS is— there is a big difference between the 80K hours articles on the US and UK political system, and given that ours seems to combine aspects of both (among other things), it’s difficult to know which points apply.
Finally, I would like to ask you one more question. Towards the end of my degree I have been doing research on law school, reading textbooks, attending events etc. Thus far it really seems to appeal to me. Do you think it may be the case that there are people who are genuinely better suited to being lawyers than policy advisors? I know that ‘lawyer’ is a fairly low priority role in the EA community. But is it likely that for a person with my attributes, personal fit might outweigh this?
Again I’ll just flag I’m happy to have a call to discuss this with you!
2: I think it varies between law schools and my impression is Usyd might be just particularly harsh marks wise. For what it’s worth, undergrad and JD students are marked together at Usyd. 12% getting HD’s seem high to me (I think Usyd is minimum 1% and max 5%?) but sounds like that’s just an exception to the norm. Also, I agree that philosophy is a great background (it is also mine!) though I have found I personally work about twice as hard for law and receive a grade on average marks 10 lower.
3: Yep, I’m in undergrad. I’ve always aimed to work in the US/​UK and have only recently been looking into Aus options, so my views aren’t very informed/​considered. For what it’s worth, I have applied to a few jobs (e.g. UK Fast Stream) with the intention of not finishing my law degree if I was accepted. I probably would at least consider the APS grad streams in the situation you suggest.
As for your last question, I think that it’s very likely that if you’re particularly suited for law and enthusiastic about it (which it sounds like you are) that there will be ways of using the vocation to have an impact in your career. Within Australia, for example, working for the ALRC seems very promising. I personally doubt those options would be in corporate law (aside from earning to give) or criminal law. Given those are the standard paths, I’d strongly encourage having a think about what the more impactful careers might be so that you can plan for them early on and not get swept up by the conventional route.
Hi Douglas,
I’m currently studying law at Usyd with the intention of going into policy. Very happy to have a call if you think that would help! Just send through a message :)
I don’t have work experience in government, nor do I have much sense of what an MPP involves or how they are viewed, but I do have a few thoughts/​bits of information that might help:
For going into policy, most of what you study in a law degree will not be relevant. It does help develop a general sense of how the law works, what some of its difficulties are (from a policy perspective) and how legislation and regulations are interpreted by courts. I’m not sure how helpful that sense is, but my sense is not particularly.
It’s particularly difficult to get good grades at a top law school (e.g. most students received ATARs of 99+ and the median marks are often 65-70), though my impression is it’s easier in second tier law schools. Of my friends who studied law and economics, even those who were far stronger verbally, had significantly higher marks in econ than law (85 avg econ seems comparable to 70 in law for those with similar aptitudes). I don’t know how comparable econ is to an MPP.
For policy careers, the advice I’ve received is that your experience is more important than your educational background. Good grades/​degree might be a threshold requirement, but the predominant interest is in your ability to be able to discuss relevant work or extra-curricular experience.
I’m not sure how to think about going into politics! I agree that law backgrounds seem common, and I imagine being involved in party politics and student politics at a prestigious uni might be helpful.
I suspect even with lower aptitude for maths, the basic statistics and economics subjects should be manageable (if they are introductory) and at least I personally regret not having been able to study them as my sense is they are actually relevant to a significant amount of policy work.
I hope that helps!
Thanks for the feedback Michael! I think that your points are very helpful.
1: I thought this might be the case. Legal education seems very broad, with many subjects primarily intended to prepare students for the practice of law.
2: You may indeed be right, because the cohort I’ve been competing with in philosophy (largely those studying a Bachelor of Arts) generally don’t have strong ATARs. On the other hand, I feel like philosophy is one of the better majors for enhancing one’s analytical skills, so I think I have a leg up on the other members of the JD cohort. I think it’s around 12% of students who receive HDs at most law schools, which doesn’t seem impossible.
Just to clarify, I’ve already finished my undergraduate degree, so I can’t study an LLB. This means I would have to take a full fee place in a JD, which obviously makes it less appealing. On the bright side, one still receives Centrelink for the duration of the JD. One does not while studying an MPP, which is very significant.
3: Definitely a good point, and I have heard that as well. This may be a point in favour of joining the APS generalist stream, if I can get in. Am I right in assuming that you are studying law in undergrad? Are you considering any of the APS graduate streams after completing your degree? Would you consider them if you had already completed a Bachelor of Arts?
4: I am really uncertain about this too. On the face of it, you don’t often hear about politicians having spent extended periods of time working for the APS in Canberra. However, some of them may have spent a few years there before moving to a major city. I’m not sure how transferrable the career capital one gains in the APS is— there is a big difference between the 80K hours articles on the US and UK political system, and given that ours seems to combine aspects of both (among other things), it’s difficult to know which points apply.
Finally, I would like to ask you one more question. Towards the end of my degree I have been doing research on law school, reading textbooks, attending events etc. Thus far it really seems to appeal to me. Do you think it may be the case that there are people who are genuinely better suited to being lawyers than policy advisors? I know that ‘lawyer’ is a fairly low priority role in the EA community. But is it likely that for a person with my attributes, personal fit might outweigh this?
No problem :)
Again I’ll just flag I’m happy to have a call to discuss this with you!
2: I think it varies between law schools and my impression is Usyd might be just particularly harsh marks wise. For what it’s worth, undergrad and JD students are marked together at Usyd. 12% getting HD’s seem high to me (I think Usyd is minimum 1% and max 5%?) but sounds like that’s just an exception to the norm. Also, I agree that philosophy is a great background (it is also mine!) though I have found I personally work about twice as hard for law and receive a grade on average marks 10 lower.
3: Yep, I’m in undergrad. I’ve always aimed to work in the US/​UK and have only recently been looking into Aus options, so my views aren’t very informed/​considered. For what it’s worth, I have applied to a few jobs (e.g. UK Fast Stream) with the intention of not finishing my law degree if I was accepted. I probably would at least consider the APS grad streams in the situation you suggest.
As for your last question, I think that it’s very likely that if you’re particularly suited for law and enthusiastic about it (which it sounds like you are) that there will be ways of using the vocation to have an impact in your career. Within Australia, for example, working for the ALRC seems very promising. I personally doubt those options would be in corporate law (aside from earning to give) or criminal law. Given those are the standard paths, I’d strongly encourage having a think about what the more impactful careers might be so that you can plan for them early on and not get swept up by the conventional route.