What cultural and structural features do you think might contribute to the perceived decline in a just-do-it attitude?
While I think there is considerable merit to what you’re saying, I think it’s also important to acknowledge the existence of challenges for would-be doers in 2023 that weren’t necessarily (as) present in 2008 or 2013. Some of these challenges are related to the presence and/or actions of big organizations and funders (e.g., the de-emphasis on earning to give affecting the universe of potential viable funders for upstarts). Others are related to changes in the meta more generally (e.g., a small group birthing a startup in the first wave’s signature cause area—global health—without outside help or funding is probably easier than doing the same in AI safety).
What cultural and structural features do you think might contribute to the perceived decline in a just-do-it attitude?
(this is just personal anecdote, so it shouldn’t be interpreted with too much confidence. Like all anecdotes, it may not generalize)
I only started to discover EA in 2020, so I think it is reasonable to say that I am of the newer “EA generation.” There are a few things that I’ve vaguely noticed within myself when I’ve thought of starting projects. Some are social/prestige/reputational things, some are financial stability things, and some are related to lack of skills. I’ll phrase these as “things my brain tells me, whether I agree with them or not:”
There are organizations with fairly wide-ranging remits that already exist, so I probably don’t need to start Project X, because they have more connections/expertise/context and are more well-placed to start it.
I don’t have the skill/knowledge/experience to do Project X well. The people in the EA community have really high standards, so I probably wouldn’t get clients for my consulting firm or funding for my charity if I am only able to do it fairly well, because they would want me to do it extremely well.
I don’t want to start something and have it fizzle out, because people in this relatively tight-knit/interconnected community would all see me fail, and then it would be really hard for me to do anything else in EA.
I don’t have anything prestigious to show. I didn’t start and sell my own company, I didn’t attend Yale, I didn’t work at McKinsey. I’m not able to signal impressiveness, and lacking some kind of signaling people won’t pay attention to me.
I don’t want to pursue an opportunity that only has finding guaranteed for 6-12 months. If I had several years of living expenses available then I could pursue more risky paths, but if finding a job might take between NUM1 and NUM2 months and I have less than NUM2 months of living expenses available, then pursuing risky paths seems too risky.
I’m not immediately seeing how any of this contributes to a decline in a just-do-it attitude?
Michael_PJ seems to be talking about what happens when people see problems within EA (”...who not only identify problems in the world...who feel like an idea is neglected...I always feel a bit sad when I see “EA should …” posts”).
I don’t think this applies to your first two bullets, where you seem to be talking about newer people thinking the existing people are doing a much better job than they could.
And your last three bullets seem to apply ~equally to both older and newer people (unless by bullet four you actually mean something closer to my previous sentence).
The level of quality and professionalism has risen since the old days which makes it intimidating to contribute your own half-assed thing.
Doing things does usually require time, and a lot of the early doing was done by students (and still is!). It’s much harder to be that involved when you’re older without becoming professionally involved. These days we have a lot more non-students!
I think all Will’s stuff about the perceived allocation of responsibility and control has a big impact.
I’m not super convinced that the fundraising situation is tougher? It seems much easier to me than it was. Especially for small things we have a decent range of funders.
the de-emphasis on earning to give affecting the universe of potential viable funders for upstarts
I mean, we started out without any earning-to-give people funding us. I think that’s more the period Michael_PJ is referencing here (“most of our “big” orgs started with a couple of people in a basement”).
And it was the early emphasis on earning to give by these “big organizations and funders” that meant there were any earning-to-give people.
It feels a bit unfair to act like these orgs/funders are to blame for why EAs today find it more challenging to get funding, when these orgs/funders are the reason there’s any funding for other EAs at all and who didn’t receive any pay themselves when they started building these orgs? I don’t follow.
I don’t see where I am casting “blame” on anyone. I’m glad the megadonors chose to give to EA causes rather than (e.g.) stocking university endowments. It was reasonable to place less emphasis on earning-to-give in light of projections at the time.
However, it also seems that but for the introduction of megadonors and de-emphasis of EtG, there would be greater diversification of funding sources than actually happened.
Generally speaking, people wanting to try new things in an established ecosystem face different challenges from those wanting to create a new ecosystem. I’m not opining on whether those challenges are greater or worse than those present in 2008 or 2013. But I think it’s important to understand why some members of the community don’t seem to feel an empowering just-do-it spirit.
But you’re talking about a “decline in a just-do-it attitude” caused by “challenges for would-be doers in 2023 that weren’t necessarily (as) present in 2008 or 2013″, but then seem to be saying that ‘Now we have tons of money from Open Phil and a lot from other places’ is a ‘challenge’ that EAs today face that wasn’t as present in 2008 or 2013...because back then there was hardly any money at all.
And I’m saying that I don’t see how having money now (skewed heavily to one funder) is supposed to explain a decline in a just-do-it attitude?
(I realise that you also say “a small group birthing a startup in the first wave’s signature cause area—global health—without outside help or funding is probably easier than doing the same in AI safety” but that seems very non-obvious to me and in fact I would have guessed the opposite.)
What cultural and structural features do you think might contribute to the perceived decline in a just-do-it attitude?
While I think there is considerable merit to what you’re saying, I think it’s also important to acknowledge the existence of challenges for would-be doers in 2023 that weren’t necessarily (as) present in 2008 or 2013. Some of these challenges are related to the presence and/or actions of big organizations and funders (e.g., the de-emphasis on earning to give affecting the universe of potential viable funders for upstarts). Others are related to changes in the meta more generally (e.g., a small group birthing a startup in the first wave’s signature cause area—global health—without outside help or funding is probably easier than doing the same in AI safety).
(this is just personal anecdote, so it shouldn’t be interpreted with too much confidence. Like all anecdotes, it may not generalize)
I only started to discover EA in 2020, so I think it is reasonable to say that I am of the newer “EA generation.” There are a few things that I’ve vaguely noticed within myself when I’ve thought of starting projects. Some are social/prestige/reputational things, some are financial stability things, and some are related to lack of skills. I’ll phrase these as “things my brain tells me, whether I agree with them or not:”
There are organizations with fairly wide-ranging remits that already exist, so I probably don’t need to start Project X, because they have more connections/expertise/context and are more well-placed to start it.
I don’t have the skill/knowledge/experience to do Project X well. The people in the EA community have really high standards, so I probably wouldn’t get clients for my consulting firm or funding for my charity if I am only able to do it fairly well, because they would want me to do it extremely well.
I don’t want to start something and have it fizzle out, because people in this relatively tight-knit/interconnected community would all see me fail, and then it would be really hard for me to do anything else in EA.
I don’t have anything prestigious to show. I didn’t start and sell my own company, I didn’t attend Yale, I didn’t work at McKinsey. I’m not able to signal impressiveness, and lacking some kind of signaling people won’t pay attention to me.
I don’t want to pursue an opportunity that only has finding guaranteed for 6-12 months. If I had several years of living expenses available then I could pursue more risky paths, but if finding a job might take between NUM1 and NUM2 months and I have less than NUM2 months of living expenses available, then pursuing risky paths seems too risky.
I would love the community to be more supportive in ways that would help with that. Things I would like:
Accept that new projects may be not that great, encourage them to grow and maybe even chip in as well as criticising.
Accept and even celebrate failure.
Even more incubator style things. I love what CE does here.
I’m not immediately seeing how any of this contributes to a decline in a just-do-it attitude?
Michael_PJ seems to be talking about what happens when people see problems within EA (”...who not only identify problems in the world...who feel like an idea is neglected...I always feel a bit sad when I see “EA should …” posts”).
I don’t think this applies to your first two bullets, where you seem to be talking about newer people thinking the existing people are doing a much better job than they could.
And your last three bullets seem to apply ~equally to both older and newer people (unless by bullet four you actually mean something closer to my previous sentence).
A few thoughts:
The level of quality and professionalism has risen since the old days which makes it intimidating to contribute your own half-assed thing.
Doing things does usually require time, and a lot of the early doing was done by students (and still is!). It’s much harder to be that involved when you’re older without becoming professionally involved. These days we have a lot more non-students!
I think all Will’s stuff about the perceived allocation of responsibility and control has a big impact.
I’m not super convinced that the fundraising situation is tougher? It seems much easier to me than it was. Especially for small things we have a decent range of funders.
I mean, we started out without any earning-to-give people funding us. I think that’s more the period Michael_PJ is referencing here (“most of our “big” orgs started with a couple of people in a basement”).
And it was the early emphasis on earning to give by these “big organizations and funders” that meant there were any earning-to-give people.
It feels a bit unfair to act like these orgs/funders are to blame for why EAs today find it more challenging to get funding, when these orgs/funders are the reason there’s any funding for other EAs at all and who didn’t receive any pay themselves when they started building these orgs? I don’t follow.
I don’t see where I am casting “blame” on anyone. I’m glad the megadonors chose to give to EA causes rather than (e.g.) stocking university endowments. It was reasonable to place less emphasis on earning-to-give in light of projections at the time.
However, it also seems that but for the introduction of megadonors and de-emphasis of EtG, there would be greater diversification of funding sources than actually happened.
Generally speaking, people wanting to try new things in an established ecosystem face different challenges from those wanting to create a new ecosystem. I’m not opining on whether those challenges are greater or worse than those present in 2008 or 2013. But I think it’s important to understand why some members of the community don’t seem to feel an empowering just-do-it spirit.
But you’re talking about a “decline in a just-do-it attitude” caused by “challenges for would-be doers in 2023 that weren’t necessarily (as) present in 2008 or 2013″, but then seem to be saying that ‘Now we have tons of money from Open Phil and a lot from other places’ is a ‘challenge’ that EAs today face that wasn’t as present in 2008 or 2013...because back then there was hardly any money at all.
And I’m saying that I don’t see how having money now (skewed heavily to one funder) is supposed to explain a decline in a just-do-it attitude?
(I realise that you also say “a small group birthing a startup in the first wave’s signature cause area—global health—without outside help or funding is probably easier than doing the same in AI safety” but that seems very non-obvious to me and in fact I would have guessed the opposite.)